Posted on 06/04/2009 10:23:17 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
1. Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.
3. Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
4. The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church
Soruce: www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro
This is the internet we're speaking of...if you do a google search of ghosts, the Loch Ness Monster, and ESP, you'll find more sources about each than you have time to read.
....buuut not so much when you google "skepticism".
Well alrighty-then!
I've LIVED several medical miracles. I don't need to read about them, but as a hospice nurse I can name instances where 100% of doctors, scientists had no explanation for what occured, no natural explanations & nothing verified by science, etc. etc. etc.
Like the man that lived over 40 days with no water. He was supposed to die when taken off the vent since he had a severe stroke affecting his midbrain.
That was one thing, but no intake of any fluids for that long...in a weakened state to begin with nonetheless, there's simply no scientific literature to support it. No "natural" explanations.
I've seen similar instances with food.
And I've seen no natural explanations that have even been offered, let alone satisfactory.
I also haven't seen any adjustments to the consensus that people can go 10-22 days without water before succumbing and this happened several years ago.
Your post is a breath of fresh air! facts, logic and reason always trump faith.
MM: What facts?
The non-theist puts his faith in he calls *facts, logic, and reason*, so is in no position to dis faith.
It’s never a matter of whether a person has faith or not. Everyone has it. It’s merely what they put their faith in.
Exactly...it takes more faith to believe us and all this around us are here “just because”...
from...
and for the purposes of...
nadda, nothing, zero.
That's not a weakness in science, it's a strength. As new evidence is presented, old theories are sometimes discarded.
“That’s more than a little condescending....” And you’re not?
Certainly, when the occasion calls for it. I just wanted you to admit that you were condescending when you asserted that all non-believers are incapable of changing their minds in the face of new evidence.
I quoted “logical” in this since because a logical assumption can depend on the issue being discussed. For instance, what is “rich” monetarily for some may not be “rich” for others.
Fair enough. Starting assumptions make a big difference, and are frequently irreconcilable when sides face off.
The Assyrians had widely been written off my scholars as a mythical empire. That is, until the middle nineteenth century when it was discovered by Austen Henry Layard and Paul Emile Botta.
As I just said elsewhere, the Bible is mixture of oral history, folklore, and myth. Many religious texts contain elements that archeologists have confirmed. That doesn't mean (for instance) that someone rose from the dead 3 days after being crucified.
And as someone else just pointed out, Troy used to be considered mythical, but is now known to have existed. That's not evidence for existence the of Ares and Athena!
Their money's as good as anyone else, so if atheists want to pay for ads that express their religious beliefs, that's fine with me.
“In the beginning, man created God...”
They even had to use His words to deny Him!
Bitter losers. Prideful and arrogant men.
Some day, every knee will bow and every tongue will
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - as much as they
won’t want to.
I just googled "skepticism". It gave me 11,800,000 hits.
As for your personal experience with medical miracles: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. While discussing these sorts of things on the internet, I've talked with with people who claim to have experienced miraculous healing, telepathy, knowledge of past lives, dowsing, and alien abduction...and yet when investigated, these sorts of claims vanish like a puddle on a hot day.
In the absence of rigorous documentation, there's simply no reason to believe such things.
I'm reminded of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, in which there are atheists despite thousands of gods objectively existing. They just keep quiet about it, since the ones that yell "There are no gods!" tend to be hit by lightning bolts moments later.
A fantasy version of "suicide by cop" if you will...
[[Atheist Ads in Chicago Say Man Created God]]
God’s ads in nature show God was, is and always shall be- let the ignorant rant on otherwise- they will know one day how wrong they were, or God may show htem before hand hopefully
LOL! Never read them, I’ll check them out.
ahhhh, so nevermind I actually experienced it first hand, unless pencil meets paper it just didn’t happen.
I’ll bring that up to the attending doc next time I see her, and tell her it was all a mirage! LOL!
(And perhaps she can call the other 2-3 docs SHE called to the unit for a look-see and explain to them it was all a mirage and so on too.)
Oh, and by the way, how many hits do you get when you pull up UFO? What does # of hits have to do with the price of eggs in China?
Additionally, this particular incident IS well documented. This guy’s medical records meticulously reflect his intake and output, observations, time, etc. etc. etc.
I have a surgeon friend who prays for and with his patients. He regularly sends them home without operating because they have been healed, again verified by tests and scans.
The medical community is replete with cases like that to the point where scientific studies have been conducted to evaluate the effect prayer has on patients.
But that's not good enough for some because......
Luke 16: 19- 31
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
It's never a matter of *can't* believe (because of evidence) but a matter of *won't* believe.
While that is true, man is in no position to access that objective reality. It is simply not possible for him, being a subjective being bound by his experience and worldview.
“Gravity can be measured,” [excerpt]No, it cannot.
aside from your anecdotes, do you have any source material to attest these claims? miraculous claims need some sort of independant verification if they’re to be taken seriously.
thanks in advance!
We are at rock bottom. If you don’t agree that a=a regardless of your worldview, then we have no basis on which to continue this discussion.
If the plethora of healings by the medical community is not enough to satisfy you, nothing I post will. The medical community doesn’t call them miracles for nothing. They do happen.
As is usual, though, I don’t doubt that anything I post will just be dismissed off hand as unverifiable, misdiagnosis, unreliable because it’s from an anonymous internet source, yada, yada, yada,... as has been done before by the evos when this topic comes up.
People know that these miraculous healings occur and label them *spontaneous remission* and other such things. But if that’s not enough, nothing I can add will change your mind.
But you can google *miracle spontaneous remission* and get some links, which, no doubt you will blow off anyway. Just for kicks, here’s one...
http://www.acampbell.ukfsn.org/essays/skeptic/miraculouscures.html
The story you told is from an anonymous internet source, and thus is unverifiable. That seems pertinent, under the circumstances.
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