GOP NATIONAL CONVENTION *LIVE THREAD* DAY 4

http://www.gopconvention.com/ ^ | 09.04.08 | WakeUpAndVote

[CottonBall]

Elect McCain, and at LEAST we’ll have a fighting chance of moving the Supreme Court to the right and grooming a true conservative president for 2012 in VP Palin

4 years of association with McAmnesty and nobody will remember she was ever a conservative. That's my fear. a VP and their P have to be in lockstep. She will not be able to come out and say anything opposing him. I fear this will do her (and us) more harm in the long run.

[CottonBall]

Forest, trees, and all that.

I'm looking at the forest ('12) and you are looking at the trees (now).

[Sunnyflorida]

“All the little OUSSBAMA’s activists are very nervous these last days and trying everything for the Messiah”

Oh come on. I am not one issue. Neither are most of the people critical of McCain. Let me give you three. McCain-Finegold. McCain-Lieberman. McCain-Kennedy. Cap ‘n Trade. Excess profits of the Oil companies (btw the Oil company profits are TERRIBLE). Sorry, more than three LOL it is kind of hard to stop once you get rolling on McCain’s liberal-populist record.

[Ulysse]

Well,good,right,nice,etc...
I don’t want to discuss the point here.I couldn’t and you are surely partially right!
But the FACTS ARE that USA is in time of campaign and it’s time to WIN,for the candidates,IT’S TIME TO MAKE A CHOICE,for the voters,and the choice is BETWEEN 2 CANDIDATES...

And you should remind that there are many issues...

Then WHAT IS YOUR GOAL IN THAT ELECTION? I think that is a real question

[Sunnyflorida]

“Likewise, until that time I have to think you like Barrack Obama more than John McCain.”

Then you think wrong.

[Sunnyflorida]

Look I fully respect you views and your choice to vote for McCain. I have big-issues with supporting him.

[mnehring]

However, the President can order enforcement of our existing immigration laws.

That is actually one of the biggest problems. There are so many loopholes in existing immigration laws, that it takes months of paperwork to deport one person- if that person doesn't have access to a liberal lawyer who can stretch it out longer. A while back someone figured out that if we try to use the existing laws and system and funnel every illegal through, it would take about 500 years, assuming the inflow stopped.

There needs to be a major overhaul of existing laws. That won't happen under McCain, but at least with McCain, we have leverage to try to prevent him from making it worse until we can move the chess pieces into place to have a congress and executive branch that is willing to actually deal with the issue.

[CottonBall]

We've already shown, several times with President Bush, what we can do if we have the will to do it.

This is true. My fear is that we cannot keep fighting an uphill battle and we will lose eventually. But you're right on one point - if Obama gets in with many Dems in congress, what the Republicans do won't count at all. They'll be outvoted. Long-term - the chance of electing a conservative in '12 goes down if McAmnesty gets in and out liberals the liberals.

BUT, we also have to realize that 99.9% of the responsibility lies with ourselves.

I don't. We are doing our own yard and own tile work because we cannot find a legal citizen that will do that work. Wages have been so depressed for those jobs that Americans cannot afford to do them. It IS those that employ the illegals' fault, but it is also the liberal political climate that encourages it. Every time I get a call from the police, sheriff, etc asking for money, I tell them I will support them again when they enforce existing illegal immigration laws. Since that isn't being done, the average citizen cannot do a thing to stop this invasion. We cannot even call ICE - they don't care either.

[kabar]

I'll repeat what I've said- the immigration problem is a symptom of the culture of liberalism, not the cause of it.

Empty generalizations won't solve the problem. The causes of the problem are failed legal immigration policies that hurt this nation and the lack of enforcement of our existing laws. How are you going to solve the problem specifically? We don't need "hope and change" solutions or empty platitudes. Do you even understand the problem?

You want to cure a cold, don't just blow your nose, go after the virus. Blowing your nose only is a temporary fix for your nose.

I provided you with plenty of data, which you obviously have failed to read. Until you wish to discuss this issue in a reasoned way without reflexive emotion and nonsensicial analogies, I am wasting my time.

Neither Obama, nor McCain are going to improve the illegal immigration issue, but one of those two will be President. At least we have leverage with McCain, just as we had leverage with Bush over Meyers and Amnesty. The responsibility is back in our hands.

As someone who actually fought this battle on the Hill lobbying against it, you are completely wrong on why McCain-Kennedy failed. Bush, Rove, Martinez, and others in the WH were supporting McCain-Kennedy. We had no leverage against the WH. It was just the opposite. The WH was using its leverage against us.

The reason that McCain-Kennedy failed was because of grassroots organizations like NumbersUSA [Roy Beck], FAIR, Grassfire, etc. mobilized public opinion against the bill. We bombarded Congress with faxes and telephone calls. The political and corporate elites lost this battle, but the war is still on.

In addtion to the White House, we had some very powerful forces arrayed against us, including the American Chamber of Commerce, the Dems, labor unions, the Catholic Church, the ACLU, La Raza, etc. They continue to push for amnesty and guest worker programs. Subsequent to the defeat of McCain-Kennedy, these forces tried to pass amnesty piecemeal including attaching the Dream Act to the DOD appropriation bill and a guest worker program to the Ag bill. Cong Price [D-NC] is trying to eviscerate the 287 [g] program in his committee and Senator Menendez [D-NJ] is trying to kill e-verify, which expires in November.

McCain took the defeat of McCain-Kennedy as a personal affront. He is determined to get CIR passed. He holds grudges, witness his reaction to his defeat in 2000. He was only one of two Rep senators to vote against the Bush tax cuts and he almost became Kerry's running mate. As someone who has been fighting McCain for several years on immigration starting with the 2006 Senate amnesty bill that passed, I have no doubt that he will do whatever is necessary to get amnesty passed whether he is in the Senate or the WH. We will have absolutely no leverage on him. The battle will be fought in the House. Amnesty will pass easily in the Senate.

[Rutles4Ever]

Please name for me all the Supreme Court Justices McCain has voted for?

Irrelevant. I just named for you two Supreme Court justice who we KNOW the Democrats will appoint. You like those odds better?

And there is no way the President of the United States is ever going to put an end to abortion. That is impossible. There is no possible way. None. Even overturning Roe won’t do it.

Really. So once the Supreme Court decides something - such as Dred Scott - it's an irreversible reality? That's an interesting, defeatist attitude. There's "no way" overturning Roe v. Wade will lead to the end of legalized abortion? Are you sure about that? "No way?"

Look I loath BO and the Dems but I am realistic on McCain.

So you're willing to burn the house down because the furnace is broken? What are you thinking?

[CottonBall]

WHAT IS YOUR GOAL IN THAT ELECTION?

hmmmm. I could prioritize and illegal immigration would be #1. If I could move out of a border state today, then it might drop to #4 because I wouldn't visibly see the affects every single day. For now. #2 taxes. #3 national security.

I know you'll say McCain is better on #2 and #3. He's likely better on #1 than Obama also and would at least pretend to listen to the base for a short time.

I just have a hard time voting for a traitor to conservatism who is using a fine, intelligent, truly conservative VP just to get our votes and then, likely, ruin her career by association. We'll be toast in '12.

[CottonBall]

It’ll be deja vu all over again. We’ve been fighting our own party so long again amnesty, it’s an uphill battle. At some point, we will lose I fear.

Thank you for your efforts to save our country.

[Rutles4Ever]

If I may, the word “fear” - repeated in your post - speaks volumes. You’re defeated before you even hit the battlefield. Let the Democrats be the party that fears us. We can’t afford to fear ourselves. If you’re going to “fear”, then go over to DU.

[Rutles4Ever]

Then you think wrong.

Yet, you will give comfort and aid to the enemy by slamming McCain in a clearly GOP-friendly forum. Prove me wrong.

[kabar]

thanks. I find it interesting that McCain, a self-described maverick, can vote on the basis of principle and conscience over party, but we can’t. These same people who are telling us we have no choice will be the same ones complaining about McCain’s policies and selling out to the Dems if he gets into the WH.

[Sunnyflorida]

“There are so many loopholes in existing immigration laws.”

That is correct. But it is a lot like the IRS. If they had to audit and fine everybody then nobody would pay. But I know if I am the one that does not pay I get fines and maybe jail time. In fact I might be able to find a sharp lawyer and get my tax bill negotiated down. But it is not worth it. The same principle goes for speed enforcement. Why do you think the cops run their lights and make a big show of giving a ticket? We have this “Christmas tree” vacant lot. The cops catch people speeding a across the bridge pull them into the vacant lot and keep the flashers going like a Christmas Tree. Those flashing lights once or twice a week keep the speeds down for commuters not the speed limit sign on the bridge.

The same tactic applied to illegal immigration might work and should be tried. If we said we are going to enforce the laws and do it even for a few cases the word gets out. In fact it works on some levels in some States and Cities now. The key is to do your best to enforce the laws you have or nobody will belief you will enforce the law in the future.

[Rutles4Ever]

Look I fully respect you views and your choice to vote for McCain. I have big-issues with supporting him.

Look, I'm not a fan of amnesty, either. But we will be in a far worse position with Obama in the White House, any way we cut it. If you have to hold your nose to vote McCain, I understand, but for the love of God, we need to be united as a party to keep that Marxist out of the White House...

[Sunnyflorida]

“Really. So once the Supreme Court decides something - such as Dred Scott - it’s an irreversible reality? That’s an interesting, defeatist attitude. There’s “no way” overturning Roe v. Wade will lead to the end of legalized abortion? Are you sure about that? “No way?”’

Yes because overturning Roe sends the law making back to the States. And even when and where abortion is illegal you still have it. The only way to really stop abortion is to convince the woman not to do it. I am not interested in just stopping legalized abortion. I am interested in stopping abortions.

“What are you thinking?”

McCain is a lib-populist.

[kabar]

Whaddya Know? Enforcement Works! Real-life immigration lessons

Attrition Through Enforcement A Cost-Effective Strategy to Shrink the Illegal Population

[FreeReign]

kabar:At NAELO and La Raza, McCain discussed how he would treat "God's children." He only favors deporting the 2 million criminal illegal aliens. How he would do that remains to be seen. The rest will be allowed to stay and bring in their families, which would destroy this country with the stroke of a pen. Amnesty is forever.

FreeReign:Cite...

McCain's Speech to La Raza--July 14, 2008

The excerpt that you posted doesn't match your above claim. I'll repeat what McCain said at CPAC.

Feb. 2008 | CPAC | McCain: I...have pledged that it would be among my highest priorities to secure our borders first, and only after we achieved widespread consensus that our borders are secure, would we address other aspects of the problem in a way that defends the rule of law and does not encourage another wave of illegal immigration.

Again, I not arguing that one should trust McCain on this.