Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
(Not sure what you're implying here...maybe you could spell it out). I've at least noted once that when a FReeper posted something along these lines, he was trying to "tag" Lot for something. [If you read Lot's story, you'll note that his daughters first got him drunk in initiating their pregnancies. If you were insinuating this was Lot's issue, then I'd hate for you to be a detective investigating a crime where some guy got a woman drunk & then raped her. (If that was the case, you'd wind up blaming the victim).]
As to whether or not OT scripture or the Ten Commandments or GOD ever condoned a man having multiple wives, the OT does often mention that Abraham, Jacob...
Since you say you're an atheist, it sounds to me like you haven't read these accounts too carefully. (And while you may or may not care about the detail I give that follows, I do so for the sake of others who claim that Old Testament polygamy was somehow "God-inspired). Let's break down those you cite:
Abraham: Please tells where in Gen. 16:3 re: Hagar, or anywhere that Hagar is ever referred to as a wife or anything but a maidservant? Unless you think Abram's wife is "god," where did God ever instruct Abram to sleep with her? Where in Gen. 25:1 or thereabouts did God instruct Abraham to take another wife as he did with Keturah?
Jacob Jacob himself says that his whole multiple wife thing was sprung on him because he was "deceived"--he labored for Rachel and was given Leah minus knowledge it was her until he was "knowledgeable" with her to the point where he couldn't (in that day) throw her back like a fish in the lake. So, deception-based polygamy of Jacob is somehow "divine?"(see Gen. 29:23,25). Gen. 30 also shows it wasn't God who prompted Jacob--it was more women (Jacob's 2 wives) who acted in exactly the same pattern as did Abram's wife--with them giving their maidservants to Jacob. (Also, note that Leah was given a "bridal week" even after the deception in Gen. 29. So the question for Rachel's maidservant: Where was her "bridal week" between Gen. 30:3 (Rachel's idea) and Gen. 30:4 (sexual liaison carried out with maidservant)? No mention, there, of a new "bridal week" or "bridal day"...no assumption, therefore, that this was "polygamy" in terms of additional "wives"--they appeared to be "concubines--sexual cohabitators."
...David, Solomon, and many others who had multiple wives and since all these men according to the Bible, found great favor and grace with GOD and were not punished for it, one could reasonably conclude that at one time the practice was not against their religious faith.
Response: First of all, if we're going to "commend" polygamy just because David engaged in it (which seems to be your cockeyed argument), then I guess we have to "commend" adultery just because David also engaged in that, eh? (2 Sam chptrs 11 & 12). I mean, in effect, David made Bathsheba into a "temporary" polygamist--which is the bottom-line net effect of adultery. You can't get around that adultery, pure and simple, IS adultery according to Gen. 2:24; Matt 19:4-6 & was indeed "against...faith."
Secondly, David's concubines, post-repentance, were treated like widows (2 Sam. 20:3). His actions with Bathsheba was labeled by God as an act where David "despised" God (2 Sam. 12:10). It's possible that his first wife, Michal, may have died re: pre Solomon's birth via Bathsheba (2 Sam. 6:23 mentions her death).
Solomon: Solomon had been warned NOT to intermarry (1 Kings 11:2). Polygamy & "concubinage" behavior with idolatry-loving women turned his heart away from God (1 Kings 11:4). Solomon was condemned by God (1 Kings 11:9-11).
The Old Testament clearly condemned polygamy: "He MUST NOT take many wives, or his heart will be led astray." (Deut. 17:17). Solomon clearly ignored Deut 17 to his detriment.
I just get a little peeved when some folks attack Mormons for their religious beliefs; some of the most politically conservative and patriotic and moral folks Ive known.
Oh. It's OK, then for YOU to "get a little peeved" at somebody's religious belief that says, "defend the truth from counterfeits," but if this same religious person acts upon a Mormon who provokes them, all of a sudden we hear from you, "Thou shalt not attack Mormons for their religious beliefs." (Which Mt. Sinai did you hear that commandment from?)
You have FReepmail.
The Spirit of the Lord has witness to me, thank you!
See my post 501. It's been my experience that if folks actually read the Old Testament accounts instead of relying upon hearsay, then they'd see there's little there to try to justify its practice.
While I would not agree with them, I think their answer would be that adultery is relations outside of wedlock. To their thinking, the people are married, even if it is with multiple wives, thus it would not be adultery.
Where I disagree with this, personally, is that the man had to be married to one woman first, and simply DESIRING to have a second wife (or third, fourth, whatever) would already be an act of adultery. Did not Christ say something about how the mere desire for someone other than your spouse means you already commited the sin in your heart?
Perhaps. But many others have thought the same.. such as Reverend Jim Jones.
Yes, indeed, Exodus 21 is "interesting." Tell us...since Exodus 21 also sets up minimum standards for treatment of slaves, does that then mean you would claim that the Bible advocates slavery? (keep in mind that not all slavery in the Biblical era was American-style slavery...some of it was multi-year economic debt repayment--temporary bond servants).
Moses' Five Books neither encourage/discourage slavery. Exodus 21:7-11, along with Lev. 25:44-46, establish basic treatment standards. Your reference to Ex. 21:10 no more reinforces the practice of polygamy than it would slavery...and the fact that you isolated that verse from a 4-verse context of slavery--and didn't mention that little fact--is a form of half-truth deception if you did that purposely.
Please see post 501 re: paragraph there about Abraham. Wanna show us ANY passage from Genesis which says that Abram/Abraham had a second WIFE. (Sleeping with your maidservant or a concubine doesn't make her a WIFE--even if she gets pregnant and you raise the kid as the kid's dad)
Is that from DaveMSmith 3:16?
So you're telling me if that if I worship my tulips in my backyard, and devotedly do so, and otherwise "live a good life," I have "earned" the right to knock on the door of the Host of Heaven, & demand entry, eh?
(And what authority conveyed this special "insight" to you?)
You may be correct. It is a splitting of hairs that I do not care to get involved in. Try to understand that when I am explaining what I think others would think or say (or use as a legal defense), that it does not necessarily mean I believe the way they do. Some think that sex between men and little boys is ok... but simply making a true statement that some DO believe that, it does not mean I agree with them.
Let it suffice to say that we are in agreement that the claim that Christ was a result of multiple marriage is a false claim.
“You have FReepmail.”
Right back at ya.
So are you morally clean?
Sure they are.
They have the same texts and the same name.
It's a freakin' cult.
You're telling us that because the word "Bible" doesn't appear in the Bible, that it's an incorrect concept and "an abomination?" Really?
You know, you could make a really long list of "words not in the Bible" but if you concluded the concepts weren't there, you'd be dead wrong.
Where's the word "monotheist" in the Bible?
How about "abortion?" Is that in the Bible? "Eschatology"--is that word there?
What about concepts that most Christians don't adhere to (a few do)...concepts LDS readily embrace: Wanna tell us where the phrase "age of accountability" resides in the Bible. How about the word "agency?"
Did I make such a claim?
As far as I know, I am a sinner.. just as everyone else is.. including YOU.
It's Swedenborgian/New Church. Check my profile page if you're interested.
Bravo. Very good points.
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