Posted on 03/07/2008 6:28:00 AM PST by Esther Ruth
“True miracles are things like the resurrection of Christ, not political gamesmenship.”
Well said.
Well said.
What a stark contast between that miracle (or any other miracle in the Bible) and the "Israel of 1948 is a miracle" crowd.
You really have to lower your standards to be a dispensational futurist.
Israel now exists, the temple is waiting to be built, surely you don’t believe that this is all some kind of Biblical hocus pocus.
Or is this some kind of parallel biblical universe that’s just coincidentally imitating prophecies in the Bible but not really fulfilling them?
Just kind of a vast conspiracy mimic designed to tease unlearned fundamental Christians and get them off the tradition tried and true historical Christian theological mainstream track.
a) Christ was referring to His body.
b) Romans teaches that the old law leads to death because it could not be kept. Its purpose was to keep sin in check until the perfact law of liberty came through Christ. Galatians calls the old law a curse, and excoriates the Galatian Christians for listening to Judaizing teaches who tried to graft elements of the old law into Christianity.
May God bless your study.
It’s not biblical Israel. It is not the Israel of Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, and the apostles. It is not the Israel of the covenant. It is not the Israel of miracles like the parting of the Red Sea and the healing ministry of their Messiah-King.
It is an ersatz Israel fashioned by hands of men according to nationalist and ethnic pride that has resulted from 2000 years of separation from the God of the Bible. It is a nation that denies the triune God of Abraham who rejoiced to see the day of Messiah (John 8:56,58). It is a nation that has placed its trust in the strength of men and other nations. It is a nation that some well-meaning but otherwise ignorant Christians continue to support mainly for reasons of bad theology.
The only hope for those living there (as it is for all nation dwellers) is to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in Spirit and Truth before He appears to judge all the nations, including the secular state of Israel.
There are no specific biblical prophecies being fulfilled today wrt secular Israel except in the fertile minds of some futurists.
So reality is only a fake and immaterial mimic of what Bible scholars have found to be true only from the purely “Christian” perspective?
None of this “fake” boots on the ground Israel stuff has anything whatsoever to do with the Bible?
That’s quite a slight to Jews everywhere.
By the way last time I checked, Jesus, the man, his Mom was 100% Jewish, as were his brothers and sisters.
Don’t confuse the dispensational futurist take on reality with actual reality. Arguably they are not the same thing.
Christ and His apostles preached the truth regarding the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies.
None of this “fake” boots on the ground Israel stuff has anything whatsoever to do with the Bible?
I’ve never been able to find a definite correlation (unless I’m forced to adopt the imaginative hermeneutics of the aforementioned dispensational futurist).
That’s quite a slight to Jews everywhere.
You may take that up with Christ and His apostles.
By the way last time I checked, Jesus, the man, his Mom was 100% Jewish, as were his brothers and sisters.
100% God and 100% man, Jewish by birth as foretold by the prophets. The Bible is intended to point us to Christ and what He is doing in His spiritual kingdom and within His own body, the Church. People with their eyes on national and territorial Israel by necessity take them off of Christ.
I beg to differ with you here.
I know there a lot of Jews and Gentiles who are looking at the Land, on the national and territorial Israel and this is their first step to considering that the Bible is real and the promises of God for the Old Testament Jewish believers have not been abandoned.
By the grace of God this new reality is bringing them to a realization of who Jesus Christ is.
They are called Messianic Jews.
And the start of this Messianic movement can be traced back to around 1967, when Israel gained control of Jerusalem.
No doubt.
I know there a lot of Jews and Gentiles who are looking at the Land, on the national and territorial Israel and this is their first step to considering that the Bible is real and the promises of God for the Old Testament Jewish believers have not been abandoned.
And they could be wrong by looking to the land rather than looking to Christ. He alone is the Yea and Amen of God and the promise of the future for God’s children. The testimony regarding our father Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29) is that he longed for a heavenly city, not an earthly one. "But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." (Heb. 11:16)
If Abraham had no real regard for the physical land, why should we, the true the children of Abraham?
By the grace of God this new reality is bringing them to a realization of who Jesus Christ is.
And that has been the reality for the last 2000 years. The fact is that ethnic/cultural Jews are converted to Christ more readily outside of Israel then within, because of the cultural, etc. pressures.
They are called Messianic Jews.
Most followers of "messianic Judaism" are, in fact, gentiles, and it is mainly a western phenomenon. They have their own set of problems, some of which border on a reintroduction of the Galatian heresy into the Church.
Given that there have been Jewish converts to Christianity for 2000 years, what distinguishes this new "movement" from the experience of previous generations?
It seems to me that the main distinguishing mark is the number of gentile converts to "messianic Judaism". In fact, as I mentioned, gentiles far outnumber ethnic Jews in the "movement". There are also indications that those who claim to adhere to some for of "messianic Judaism" are more prone to (knowingly or unknowingly) accept early Christian heresies, e.g., adoptionism and modalism.
This should give everyone reason to pause and carefully inspect the fruit of such an endeavor.
“Any way I can get a couple of pairs of pants and about 5 lbs of red heifer to go?”
“The Old Covenant served its purpose. It’s over.”
From what I understand, this new Jewish movement is significantly larger than any previous onesy twosy conversions.
I do recognize the Galatian (Judaiser) problem that you speak of. The New Testament makes it very clear that you do not need to become a Jew in order to become a Christian.
But it is also clear not to judge any one by any Holy day or sabbath that we choose to keep.
Paul would not have been talking about any Holy Day other than the one’s in the Old Testament Bible.
Hmmm, it’s still based on onesy twosy conversions among Jews, is it not? But as I said, it is reported that the bulk of the "conversions" are Christians from gentile backgrounds adopting "messianic Jewish" practices.
I do recognize the Galatian (Judaiser) problem that you speak of. The New Testament makes it very clear that you do not need to become a Jew in order to become a Christian.
Worse than that, Paul warned about gentiles seeking to adopt Jewish practices, things which under the old covenant they were never bound to follow. Peter calls it a yoke that even the Jewish fathers could not bear (Acts 15:10). Why ever would an ethnic Jewish believer encourage a gentile believer to adopt such behavior?
But it is also clear not to judge any one by any Holy day or sabbath that we choose to keep.
That’s a rather simplistic reading of the passage and, IMO, ignores the context. It was never appropriate under the terms of the new covenant for former gentiles who had converted to the faith to suddenly start living like ethnic Jews. Peter and Paul never encouraged such behavior. In fact at least with regard to food, etc, Peter and Paul both lived like gentiles when they were around former gentile believers (Gal. 2). Such behavior by gentiles smacks of the very Judaizing that Paul warned against.
Paul would not have been talking about any Holy Day other than the one’s in the Old Testament Bible.
Certain holy days were only applicable to ethnic Jews, and Paul’s words were intended to demonstrate the formerly ethnic Jews were not bound to the legalities of the old covenant system that was in the process of passing away (Heb. 8:13). They may follow them if they wished as an expression of the heritage and culture, or they may discard them as relics of the old system to which they were no longer bound since the coming of Christ.
But what "messianic Judaism" seems to fail to appreciate is that the Church, Christ’s true body, is made up of both former gentiles and former Jews, religiously speaking. They stress a cultic ethnicity that is quite distant from what we find in the Bible.
But I do think that to a certain degree the anti-trinitarian tendencies of some of these group are far more troubling to the faith than not eating pork or sing tunes in a minor key. That were the heresies begin.
Ok I think we are beginning to find some common ground here.
I have never thought that it would be a good idea to try to encourage gentiles to follow Jewish law.
The new testament clearly defines this as not being necessary and even as you say a hindrance to them.
I understand your concerns about the Holy Trinity, I think those issues have been blown out of proportion by both sides of the argument.
But as far as I understand, most of the messianic Jews are Trinitarians anyway.
Oh, good.
I have never thought that it would be a good idea to try to encourage gentiles to follow Jewish law.
And yet some MJ groups see this as superior and "gentile Christianity" as inferior.
I understand your concerns about the Holy Trinity, I think those issues have been blown out of proportion by both sides of the argument.
Along with the person and work of Christ, the Trinity is the lynch pin of the faith. Get it wrong and you place your soul in eternal jeopardy.
But as far as I understand, most of the messianic Jews are Trinitarians anyway.
Perhaps. I heard a story recently about a seminary professor who sat in on an adult Sunday school class in his church, which I think was a conservative Presbyterian one. The leader asked the class what they though about the person of Jesus Christ. The professor said that as the members gave their answers he heard just about every early church heresy on the Trinity articulated. I do not believe his experience is an uncommon one. That’s a sad reflection of the state of the Church.
Some MJ groups do a better job than others of spelling out in their articles of faith the matter of the Trinity and the person and work of Jesus Christ. No guarantees about Joe in the pew.
“Along with the person and work of Christ, the Trinity is the lynch pin of the faith. Get it wrong and you place your soul in eternal jeopardy.”
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
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