B-2 Bomber Crash in Guam

KUAM News ^

[El Gato]

Lets not forget how the Airforce is beholden to the criminal enterprise known as Lockheed Martin that seeks to bilk taxpayers out of billions of dollars through “cost plus” contracts.

Just like the Army is beholden to Boeing (FCS) and General Dynamics (Sryker and Abrams), United Defense (Bradley), . Not to mention Boeing again (Apache), Sikorsky (Blackhawk), and Boeing yet again (Chinook);

[RDTF]

shame on you both.

[2CAVTrooper]

And hows that 30 year old ATF err I mean F-22 project going?

The stryker is a POS that was foisted upon the Army.

As far as the Abrams, Bradley, Apache, Blackhawk, and Chinook at least they work as advertised.

As far as the FCS goes, it’s not just Boeing who’s involved.

Another thing about FCS is at least it’s not taking 30+ years to develop unlike a certain 100+ million dollar jet that hasn’t seen a real world deployment and is already rusting apart:

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/11/airforce_raptor_rust_071112w/

[2CAVTrooper]

Oh no shame here. I was correct on what I said.

The Airforce spent millions on silly looking uniforms that it didn’t need while they complain about not having money to fix the planes it already has, and now they’re finding out that the new soooper doooper F-22 is a lemon, and the F-35 is worse.

[BikerJoe]

That’s assuming the Airforce gets a spine and tells Lockheed Martin and Boeing where they can shove the cost plus contracts and actually start holding these contractors responsible for their actions.

It's hard to do fixed cost when the requirements keep changing. You usually get something more quickly when it's cost plus, because then you're not shutting the program down every six months while lawyers argue whether something is "in the contract".

[2CAVTrooper]

“You usually get something more quickly when it’s cost plus, because then you’re not shutting the program down every six months while lawyers argue whether something is “in the contract”.”

Funny but the F22 program as it’s now called has been going on for 30 some odd years now.

The JSF has been going on for at least half that.

Lockheed Martin has been abusing the cost plus to screw all of us. Why should WE as taxpayers pay for their screw ups and delays?

If the program is delayed because Lockheed Martin is dragging it’s hind quarters then it is them who should pay for the cost overruns.

[BikerJoe]

Funny but the F22 program as it’s now called has been going on for 30 some odd years now. The JSF has been going on for at least half that.

Lockheed Martin has been abusing the cost plus to screw all of us.

You got some evidence of that abuse?

Why should WE as taxpayers pay for their screw ups and delays?

We shouldn't. However, having been on the gov't contractor side of things, I can assure you that continually changing requirements, the desire to "cram 10 pounds of $%^& in a 5 pound bag", and continually changing funding (read: Congressional dithering) accounts for FAR more of the overruns than any sandbagging by Luckup.

I personally know of a local government installation that's having a helluva time even getting new buildings built because construction people "refuse to do business with the federal government any more". Due in large part to the idiotic, bureaucratic nonsense.

If the program is delayed because Lockheed Martin is dragging it’s hind quarters then it is them who should pay for the cost overruns.

I agree entirely. However, I'll bet that, when you REALLY look at it, you'll see Air Force indecision about desired requirments and capabilities causing most of it.

By the way, how much over budget was the atomic bomb?

[2CAVTrooper]

What does the atomic bomb have to do with it?

At least it works, unlike the F22 (corrosion, weak airframe, larger RCS than advertised, etc)

As far as Lockheed abusing the cost plus, just look at some of these programs they’re working on.

The Navy wised up and outright killed the LCS that Lockheed Martin was working on.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/04/last_week_when_.html

Then there is the “off the shelf” C-130J that has nearly doubled in cost because of it being an “off the shelf” system it wouldn’t need pesky oversight of Pentagon auditors and contract managers.

[BikerJoe]

What does the atomic bomb have to do with it?

The atomic bomb has EVERYTHING to do with it. Programs like the F22 cost a lot because people are being asked to do things that haven't been done before. It's damn difficult to predict cost under those conditions. While I'll give you the corrosion and weak airframe problems on the F22, you're ignoring the fact that the radar has turned out so well that we're continually developing new things that can be done with it.

If you are so concerned about cost abuse, then the answer is COMPETITION. OOPS, the friggin' DoD ENCOURAGED companies to merge in the '90s, getting us down to what we have now. There's that pesky governmental policy problem again...

Your C-130J example couldn't possibly double in cost overnight. If the government was so freakin' concerned, they could've put in the oversight as soon as higher numbers started coming in. Did they?

Trust me friend, it ain't all Lockheed's fault. There's PLENTY of blame to go around and a lot of it lies with the government.

P.S. As to the corrosion problems on the F22, for cryin' out loud, the Air Force used to have environmental chambers to freeze and bake and hose down aircraft of all kinds. Don't they do that anymore?

[2CAVTrooper]

“Programs like the F22 cost a lot because people are being asked to do things that haven’t been done before.”

What do you mean do things that havn’t been done before?

Long before the F22 came around airplanes flew, airplanes could shoot at eachother, radar has been around since before we entered WW2, stealth has been around since the late 60’s early 70’s.....So what things havn’t been done before?

How is it difficult to predict costs under those conditions when fixed cost contracts worked well up until the mid to late 80’s?

Ok, so the radar works, but why are they STILL developing it when it’s already in active service? ALL of the development should have been finished before the first production aircraft was signed over to the Airforce. Any further developments can be added to the fleet either on the production lines with each new block number, or during depot level maintenance like the F15’s MSIP I and II upgrades.

It is all Lockheed’s fault since they’re the ones offering kickbacks to the criminals up on the Hill as well as offering military officers and DOD civilians lucrative jobs for when they “retire”.

And yes the Airforce has those environmental test chambers, and so doesn’t Lockheed Martin.

[jaydubya2]

Video of the B-2 Crash in Guam is released:

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=169718&ESRC=airforce.nl