What to Expect at Sunday LDS Meetings

I remember a thread that was pulled, the title was “What don’t you like about Mormons?”

I don't remember a thread titled by that. Even so, that would have been in poor taste and rude.

The history was that those who were banned were on both sides. Several Mormons were also banned for heated rhetoric. I was on those threads too, and I thought the posters who were banned should have been.

On a thread about debate on the history of Joseph Smith and the Mormon church, I posted (verbatim) an article by respected author and Christian Josh McDowell from his book A Ready Defense While this book does debate about different faiths such as Shintoism, Hinduism, - Buddhism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Islam, etc - one could hardly call it anything close to bomb throwing or wicked slander. It is a book that discusses faiths in biblical terms, by direct reference to biblical scripture.

It was deleted, and I was threatened with being banned if I tried to post it again.

I received several mails from Freepers who were treated in a similar fashion.

I have to tell you Utah Girl, in all clarity and honesty, I have not received 1/100th of the nasty exchanges from the followers of Islam as I have from the followers of the church of LDS concerning matters of faith.

I will also tell you that I concur with the conclusions of Josh McDowell.

Not long ago, a man I greatly respect and admire reached out to Mormon followers. His name is Ravi Zacharias.

Ravi actually came under criticism for speaking in Salt Lake City, but I applauded him for it. I urge you to listen to one of his radio recordings, or to read some of his brilliant essays or books.

He is the C.S. Lewis of our age.

Lastly, one of the moderators in 2003 posted that he was a proud Mormon. This didn't surprise me, and I am puzzled why you mentioned it. It was no secret.

Take care.

Lastly, one of the moderators in 2003 posted that he was a proud Mormon. This didn't surprise me, and I am puzzled why you mentioned it. It was no secret.

That's very interesting. Did the mod recuse himself from moderating the LDS threads?

The thread was right around the Olympics in 2002. I’ll read the excerpt from Josh McDowell’s book. In my experience on FR, it is usually the posts that get a thread pulled. I know there have been several threads that have discussed what is proper and what is not to put in a Religion thread and what is correct to post. I remember the flame wars, it was not a pretty sight.

I have heard of Ravi Zacharias. He came to Salt Lake City and talked, I didn’t hear him, but I have read some of his writings. Excellent writings, and he makes some good points.

As far as FReepers comments go, no, we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints should not post nasty exchanges about another person’s beliefs. Again, I have known a few posters to be banned who are LDS.

And I had no idea any of the moderators were Mormon. All of them are always accused of being Mormon, but I didn’t realize one was. What, there is a litmus test on what religion you are if you are a moderator at FR? Quite frankly, I think the moderators do a good objective job here.

Judges are expected to recuse themselves if they have a personal interest in a case....IMO that practice would apply, in the interest of fairness. If I were in that position, I would definitely consider it.

So what religion should the moderators belong to? Atheists? Catholic? Protestant? Hindu?

IMO, stay away from threads in which they have a personal interest. Isn’t that what I said? These mods do dual duty from what I hear, so they could trade off. It’s actually pretty reasonable.

Sorry, I misread your statement. I agree, however, they would need a moderator for each religion. LOL. My apologies again.

Appropriate dress? What if I were a homeless visitor would I be asked to leave?

I dress in my Sunday best because I want to be my best for the Lord on His day. However, there is no dress code for going to church. Homeless visitors are not asked to leave, they are welcome, as is anyone. We just ask for respect and reverence in the meetings.

The real question I have and have never understood is the assignment of ‘wards’. Why as an LDS do I have to go to a ‘ward’ as assigned, why can’t I go where I want? The reason I ask is because my uncle/aunt went to a ‘ward’ for about twenty years they moved a couple of miles away and were told they HAD to go to the closest ‘ward’ as opposed to where their long time friends were. Do you know why this is?

I think this is for organizational purposes. I grew up in Provo, Utah and the ward is now about 5 blocks square. There are 6 wards in the stake (the stake geographical boundaries are maybe 2 miles by 1 1/2 miles.) I know of one family who went to all 6 wards, didn't like 5 of the wards, but did like the last one, even though they lived in another ward's boundary. Plus, if you are an official member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, there are membership records for everyone.

And pretty much everyone has a calling in the ward: Bishop, he has 2 counselors, Relief Society president (womens auxiliary), Primary, teachers, etc. We also teach from the same lesson manuals for Sunday School and Relief Society/Priesthood, Primary, and Young Men/Young Women. There aren't any ministers who speak every Sunday, members of the ward speak each Sunday on a given topic (usually decided by the bishop and his counselors.)

My parents have lived in the same house for almost 40 years. They have been in 7 wards during that time, without moving. Whenever the wards are split or the boundaries are changed, there are different people in the ward, and friends are in the other ward(s). However, every ward I have ever lived in has had members who don't live in the ward boundaries. Reasons vary, but usually the bishops of the wards are pretty accomodating.

I've been on both ends, living in a ward where my friends were, then having that ward split, and my close friends were in the other ward. It was hard at first, but I saw them at school, and eventually I made new friends.

I got a new job about 4 years ago, and moved from Provo to Salt Lake City, Utah. I had lived in the same area in Provo for many years, and was very comfortable in my ward and stake. It was really hard to move, go to a brand new ward, and make new friends. But I did it. And I guess I have finally figured out that I go to church to worship Jesus Christ and learn more about Him and the precepts of His gospel. And I go to church for social reasons also. It is very difficult to move and lose that association with members in a former ward. I go back and visit, and it is really like going home.

As far as your friends go, they were probably told to go to their closest ward geographically. However, I do know that exceptions can be made.

Just a little history about wards. Wards were created "...to look after the temporal Welfare of the people."

Great diversity exists among wards. Many are located in Mormon communities. Others are in areas where Mormons are a distinct minority. Some have an overabundance of leadership and talent. Others suffer from lack of leadership or lack of youth involvement. Some cover a small neighborhood; others, a widespread area. But wherever located, wards have much similarity, following the same curriculum, working under equitable budget allocations, and adhering closely to central authority from Church headquarters. Increasingly, materials such as videotapes or satellite broadcasts from the General Authorities in Salt Lake City are received in all wards, promoting uniformity and commitment.
As Latter-day Saints move throughout the world, they typically transfer from one ward to another with ease, finding acceptance, responsibility, and similarity of doctrine and practice everywhere. The ward system is successful partly because wards are kept small and because, ideally, everyone in them is needed and asked to accept a calling. Serving one another, bearing each other's burdens, is the norm. Socializing the young is everywhere a mainstream activity, and the youth also contribute much to the dynamics of the ward. Reference Ward

I have been to church all over the world. I have been to Sacrament meeting in Yellowstone park, where we wore our jeans, and flannel shirts. I have been to church in Italy, when I didn't speak a word of Italian. I have been to church in Chile, where I didn't speak a word of Spanish. Everywhere I have gone, I have felt the Spirit of the Lord. For the most part, everyone is very friendly and welcoming.

Sorry, I just saw your question. I answered it Here. I will be happy to answer any questions you have.

A cult is a group which violates the rights of its members and damages them through abusive techniques of unethical mind control. Unethical mind control happens when leaders, recruitment methods, doctrines, organizational structure, cult literature uses deception, lack of full disclosure of beliefs up front, guilt, fear and shame to gain converts and keep them in the group. The group discourages or limits free thinking based on independent investigation from all sources of information about the group, including former members and dissenting opinions about the group. Not all groups are considered cults, not even if they are based on strange beliefs. A destructive cult distingues itself from a normal social or religious group by subjecting members to deception or other psychological damage in order to keep them in the group.

What are some of the methods Cults use? The methods in which such cults indoctrinate members are diverse, but most cults use public “truth telling” or “testimony of the truth of the group”,This is from Isaiah 43:8-12:

8 ¶ Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Many of the apostles bore their testimonies, including Stephen, Paul, and John. From 1 Corinthians 2:2-5

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

John the Beloved was exiled to the island of Patmos for testifying of Christ. (See Revelation 1:9. Also, Revelation 12:10-11, & 17.

swearing oaths to be faithful to the group,

From Hebrews 6:16-10

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Christ admonished his followers to avoid oaths sworn without real intent and told them to make their commitments simply by saying "yes" or "no" (Matt. 5:33-37; 23:16-22).

responsibility for recruiting other members,

You can say that of other religious denominations, such as the Southern Baptists who came to Salt Lake City for a convention to convert the Mormons.

Also, Christ taught in Matthew 28:19

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

responsibility for teaching other members of group doctrines,

Well, there are Sunday School classes offered for new members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints. And the members of the LDS church do most of the teaching.

a very heavy work load and most free time taken up in support of the group,

3 hours of church on Sunday. Depending upon the calling in the LDS church, on average maybe 3 hours a week. It depends, I play the piano, so I've been the pianist for Primary and Relief Society, which takes an hour a week of my time to practice. I was also an advisor in Young Women (the church's program for young women from age 12-18.) I taught a lesson every other Sunday, and we had an activity once a month. So during that time period, I spent about 5 hours a week. I've also been the camp director, which averaged about 5 hours a week. I've taught Primary and Sunday School, about 2 hours a week. I've been Relief Society president twice, I spent probably about 10 hours a week. I would say, the bishops in the church probably donate the most free time, and I bet that would average 15-20 hours a week. So that really isn't all our free time, or even close to it.

Doctrine over person,

I did a search on this one. If you mean

As members rewrite their own personal history or ignore it, they are simultaneously taught to interpret reality through the group concepts and ignore their own experiences and feelings as they occur. Members learn to fit themselves into the group's way of life and individuals are valued only as they conform to group doctrine.

We're taught that we are children of God, who loves us. He knows each one of us individually. The above statement of doctrine over person is just not true. About the only example I can think of is some people who have been excommunicated for teaching false doctrine. They're not allowed to keep on doing that, so the true doctrine would take precedence over the individual's false teachings. That would be true of any organization or religion. Orson Scott Card has written Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?

All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia.

doctrine without questions

This is a popular one. No. Here is what some church leaders have said:(Source: To Follow Without Question

Brigham Young(quoting Joseph Smith)
The question was asked a great many times of Joseph Smith, by gentlemen who came to see him and his people, 'How is it that you can control your people so easily? It appears that they do nothing but what you say; how is it that you can govern them so easily?' Said he, 'I do not govern them at all. The Lord has revealed certain principles from the heavens by which we are to live in these latter days. The time is drawing near when the Lord is going to cut short his work in righteousness, and the principles which he has revealed I have taught to the people and they are trying to live according to them, and they control themselves.' Gentlemen, this is the great secret now in controlling this people. It is thought that I control them, but it is not so. It is as much as I can do to control myself and to keep myself straight and teach the people the principles by which they should live.
Brigham Young
I will say a few words in regard to your belief in being led, guided, and directed by one man. Brother Jackman has said that our enemies hate the fact of our being led by one man. Thousands of times my soul has been lifted to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to make that verily true in every sense of the word, that we may be led by the man Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith the Prophet. You may inquire how we are to know that we are so led. I refer you to the exhortation you have heard so frequently from me. Do not be deceived, any of you; if you are deceived, it is because you deceive yourselves. You may know whether you are led right or wrong, as well as you know the way home; for every principle God has revealed carries its own convictions of its truth to the human mind, and there is no calling of God to man on earth but what brings with it the evidences of its authenticity....
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Boyd K. Packer
Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God.
We are the sons and daughters of God, willing followers, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and "under this head are [we] made free." (Mosiah 5:8)
Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see.
George F Richards
Elder George F. Richards remarked in 1907: It is a mistaken idea, prevalent in the world, that the perpetuity of this work depends upon the authorities keeping the masses of the people in ignorance. The truth is the direct reverse, else why have we all these auxiliary organizations and quorums of priesthood in the church, for the education of the rising generation. Their being established in the faith depends upon their knowledge of the Gospel. Our greatest fear concerning our children in Zion is the possibility of their growing up in ignorance of the everlasting Gospel...
As a matter of intelligent obedience --not blind obedience--we should observe to keep the word of wisdom. For the same reason we should observe to keep holy the Sabbath day, and the name of our Father in Heaven, and His Son Jesus Christ, and intelligently yield obedience to every requirement that is made at our hands.

I think Orson Scott Card also made some excellent points (and this has been my experience as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?

Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community.
Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become.
Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God.

Perhaps you are referring to the statement "When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done?". This statement originally appeared in the Improvement Era, in June 1945, as the Ward Teaching message for the month. And it does say that at the very end of the message. Ward Teaching June, 1945

When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.

In November, 1945 Dr. J. Raymond Cope, the leader of the First Unitarian Society in Salt Lake City, decided to express his concerns about the impact of this message in a letter to President George Albert Smith in November of the same year. The letter was cordial, and expressed the feeling that such a message was "doing inestimable harm to many who have no other reason to question the integrity of the Church leaders... this cannot be the position of the true leaders." Here is what President George Albert Smith said in reply: Response

The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.
I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.
The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.
On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."
Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

From the Doctrine & Covenants 46:7-8

"But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given."

and mandatory money giving to the group.

By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay "one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever." (D&C 119:4) Present Church policy specifically states that no one in the Church has any authority to interpret this revelation for another person (See Financial Clerk's Handbook). This prohibition applies to everyone, including Stake Presidents and Bishops. If a local Church leader instructs you how to calculate your tithing, then he is in violation of this policy. It is up to the agency of each individual person to determine what constitutes a fair interpretation of the revelation.
In other words, even in complying with these requirements, the compliance largely hinges on a members understanding of the gospel principle. It is for this reason that some of the questions overlap, so that there is no question as to the requirements in specific instances-staying up to date on child support being one of those areas where it was decided that being more specific was necessary. Further, it is implied in this process that the person who goes unworthily into the temple is doing so both willfully and with a personal recognizance of their lack of worthiness. While God does not 'strike them down', they certainly do so to their own condemnation.
Source: Tithing

Paying tithing is between me and my bishop. If I want a temple recommend, I must be worthy, and that includes paying a full and honest tithe. However, this is not mandatory, they don't ask us as we walk into church if we have paid our tithing. And we are not held up to public ridicule if we don't.

behavior control - restrictions, rules of behavior, assignments, tasks, indoctrination in meetings, teaching or being taught. The whole realm of forcing particular behaviors in order to conform to the group.

Isn't that the point of belonging to a group? Again from Orson Scott Card Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?

All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia.

thought control - black and white thinking, developing testimony for the truth of such absolute doctrines or group, thought stopping rituals, such as reverting to “statement of belief” or “testimony” of the truth of the group when confronted with any conflicting information or challenging information. Cults discourage questioning doctrine, making independent conclusions and free thinking. A person cannot come to their own conclusion if it is not in line with the group party line, or the person is deemed misled, unworthy or defective in their thinking. the fault is always found with the member and not the leader or doctrines.

About the only mind control I have ever been taught is to
1) Hum or sing a hymn when an undesirable thought enters the mind 2) Pray when an undesirable thought enters the mind
3) "Get thee behind me Satan" and other phrases which label the undesirable thought as evil so that it cannot be considered

Yes, those are really bad things to do to control my thoughts. I also think of my favorite scriptures as well.

I tried to find some other alleged mind control techniques used by the LDS church on its members. I found this statement:

There are many more subtle thought-control techniques employed by the Church, but these would require more lengthy exploration than this space allows.(Source: Cult rebuttal

emtional control - guilt, inducing feelings that you’ll never measure up, you’re not “worthy”. fear, by defining the “enemy” as one who is and will persecute you and normally defined in terms of forces like evil or satan. phobias can be induced with fear of the “enemy”. also, fear of discovery of a member’s questioning authority or doctrines and what consequences could be in store, like ex-communication or punishment, shame.

See Orson Scott Card above.

Information control - denying members from reading from independent sources of information to make sound and independent judgements on the group and group doctrines. Groups practice censorship in the form of producing “cult generated” faith affirming literature and restrict members from reading anything not published by the cult about the cult. All other sources of materials are labelled as “anti” and are “evil” and “of the enemy”.

How? I search the Internet all the time to read different opinions about many things. And thanks to those critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am becoming pretty good at distinguishing the slanted criticism against my religion and faith. (Note how I used the word "critic" instead of anti-Mormon.)

How do you think the LDS faith fits into these definitions?

It doesn't.

My neighbor is LDS and his college age son has passed on his mission time. Can he do his mission work later or is it only possible at one age?

I think the age cutoff is 26 years of age for single young men. Couples usually serve missions after they have retired. Widows and widowers also serve missions in their retirement years.

I’ve never had to bring tax papers either to tithing settlement. They take your word. I keep my word.

I don't know if tantiboh is around right now, but here are the links to the lessons in Sunday School.

New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
New Testament Class Member Study Guide
I also found a great list of background books to read. The list is New Testament Reading List

I also try to read the accounts in the four gospels. I have this book that lists the accounts side by side. The author is Monte S Nyman. Here is the link New Testament Restoration Harmony: The Complete Guide to the Four Gospels

I also like Robert J Matthews books A Plainer Translation: Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible, a History and Commentary

Thanks for the link to Josh McDowell’s book. I did read some of his writings on Mormonism and a couple of other religions. I can refute his stuff, so I don’t agree with his conclusions.

I’m just talking to myself here...

Many people around here have had a lot of negative things to say about the LDS. My only beef is that those young men keep coming to my house every month it seems like. I’m not sure how to get them to stop coming. I thought maybe if I offered them a beer?

~”I don’t know if tantiboh is around right now, but here are the links to the lessons in Sunday School.

New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual”~

Good answer, UG. FWI, the outline I used last Sunday was Lesson 26. We went off on a couple of tangents; but generally speaking, I stuck with the guidelines given in the outline.

~”Did you study Bible verses about this subject?”~

We studied almost exclusively Bible verses last Sunday, with a couple of brief detours to the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. The verses we studied are found in the outline I indicated to you in the above post, though we didn’t have time to get to all of them.

~”This is the sound of a pin dropping”~

You might be interested in my above posts, CC.

Did you drop a pin?

~”I thought maybe if I offered them a beer?”~

You do that, and they’ll talk about how they live the Word of Wisdom.

Best thing to do is smile, tell them you’re not interested, and close the door. They’ll go on to the next house.

Or, get some copies of The Watchtower and keep them handy. :-)