Posted on 04/05/2007 5:42:47 PM PDT by Utah Girl
LOL! I am getting a lot of grief for calling what I do a hobby. Let me remind others on this thread that it was DelphiUser that told me I should “get a hobby.”
HOBBY -
An activity or interest pursued outside one’s regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
I told him that discounting the claims of Mormonism IS my hobby, then went on to post that I have many, many more. Perhaps I should have stated my passion somewhat more clearly. I love reading Mormon history, scripture and its interpretation, social structure, family connections. I too love geneology and since every member of my posterity joined the LDS church before 1842, it is a very big part of who I am.
I’ll bet if we swapped notes, we could find some common ancestors. Want to give it a try?
>>Unless of course the Mormon apologists wish to assert that God breathed Michael the Archangel into the dust-formed man
Why call us religious apologists? Or Mormon Apologists? It is affine Orwellian phraseology, slander you r target while ostensibly leaving him or her nameless. Nicely don in a cunning and worldly fashion too.
I am proud to be a Mormon (in a humble way of course Grin).
I will remove all doubt from any reader’s minds. I seem to be the poster you are referring to in all your rebuts against the church
Yes it would be Michael the archangel who becomes Adam. Um, So?
>>Michael appears later in scriptures separate from the man.
Is Adam Dead at this time? Where are you talking about, can you give us a hint of time and place? links please?
>>It appears that the poster wished to skip over this glaring assertion and have it
>>swallowed whole from which to base later Mormon teachings, a useful cunning
>>technique and revealing of the poster‘s methodology.
Actually it is a footnote in Mormon doctrine being asked about by a malicious poster hoping for a denial of something he could later prove me wrong on. I had no plans to base anything off of this obscure point of doctrine many Mormons would not even know the answer as it is not even close to the plan of salvation which is where we spend most of our time studying, I however, like obscure things and have even studied Buddhism while in Taiwan because it was fun.
>>Folks, that is Christ plus your works, regardless of how the apologists wish to spin it otherwise.
LOL!
Folks that is pure feldercarb no matter how MHGinTN wishes to spin it otherwise. (grin unfounded assertions are easy to make. Tough to refute and not very nice)
>>The blood shed for us requires no other work to fulfill the covenant Christ entered into
>>with God Almighty on our behalf.
You are talking about the difference between Grace and Works your contention is that we only preach works and all that is required is grace.
For you, Faith in Jesus Christ = Grace.
For Us, Faith in Jesus Christ + Obedience = Grace
The Obedience is what you are calling work “Be ye doers of the word, not hearers only”
we believe you must have both faith and works in order to obtain salvation through Jesus’ Grace. You may be asking what do you need grace for if you are doing works, simple, we have been commanded to do our best. We will still fall short of the Glory of God, we will still need Jesus’ help to make it to heaven. At least by Trying we show our faith, nad build a bit more faith through the work
How about we look at James 2?
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This Grace + Works is the doctrine of the church. Argue if you want to but as a current member I am telling you this is what is taught. What individual members do with these teachings is up to them.
You talked about Moses and the brass serpent being a simile for Jesus
It is good to find you accept the premise that God uses similes to explain things sometimes; I’ll use that later in my post.
>>So when a religious apologist tells you that certain works are required to be judged
>>worthy with God, quote to them the following: Douay Rheims = John 3:18 He that
>>believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because
>>he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I could have a lot of fun with you by asking Gotcha’s like:
So were you baptized? If yes, Why, it’s a work. If not Why not it’s a commandment.
But that’s boring stuff.
When religious attackers call us non-Christian; These attackers damn us to hell without further argument or discussion or actual knowledge of what we believe in our hearts. Which always begs the question who is theis religious attackers to judge another professed Christian and find them wanting? Jesus only can know what is in a heart and Jesus only is the judge for he employs no servant there.
>>Now, as is the work of those modern-day Judaizers, some will come and seek to characterize these paragraphs as something less than accurate, less than fulfilling, as the long-since inaccuracies of philosophers.
Nice ad homonym, got more? Why would You think I might point out that you invective is just that? Invective, not Gospel.
>>Read what they post with a discerning eye for they are working as apologists for
>>Mormonism; they are not seeking to bring you to Christ, they are seeking to bring
>>you to Mormonism.
Read the post of this religions attacker with a discerning eye for he is spreading disinformation like a manure spreader. (I grew up in Iowa and Illinois, so I know what that looks like) This is such a load of feldercarb Mormons are Christians and we seek to bring others to Christ.
>>Another of the Mormon apologists made the following condescending post regarding a
>>syllogism apparently necessary for Mormon doctrines to be correct … it is, to use
>>another’s word, silly. “A syllogism is two agreed upon facts” [oddly enough, the
>>poster asserts without agreement, something which the posters wishes were facts in
>>agreement, as we shall see] “that lead unerringly to a third conclusion, thus:
A) God is our father (we just quoted a scripture about offspring, and I got more);
B) All animals have offspring that grow up to be of the same genus as their parents (This is how we determine a species, it breeds true);
Please tell me where I erred at this point for indeed so far all the “Apologists” you have mentioned have been me. Is God not our father? I had just quoted a scripture that said so, but you cut that out of your post.
If you want to argue that you are not a child of God? Present your arguments.
“Things breeding true being of the same species” – Care to argue that as well?
This world was created by God. God created every thing the way he did for a reason. Everything points to Jesus, every thing can teach some gospel principle.
God is Jesus’ Father. Mary is Jesus’ mother. The immaculate conception a miracle where a virgin Gives birth to the Son of God. Therefore God can father children with Humans like Mary. That makes us genetically compatible in the biological sense.
You want to argue my logic? Knock yourself out. If not, accept C as written.
C) We will grow up to be Gods (because as God’s offspring we are his species). ...
>>Somehow the poster magically transitions the God of the Universe into a creature
>>rather than a Godhead
There is only one member of the God head who had a physical body at that time as Jesus obviously had not been born yet. Therefore I thought it obvious that Jesus’ father was God the Father, thus Jesus is his only begotten son. Yes, I did leave this part out, sorry.
>>(an assertion meant to be swallowed whole so that later assertions may be based upon
>>this one)
Do you have a macro, or do you actually type this each time? Just curous.
>>and tries to support that by then comparing God to animal species and biological genus
>>designations. Silly? You bet, but also very cunning and deceptive.
Why silly? God designed this would to teach us about him, if we, his children will not grow up to be like him why don’t men grow on trees or something. I could go on with “Silly” examples of what does not happen, but I’ll leave that to your imagination.
>>The same poster then quotes further scriptures to support a false notion, but it doesn’t
>>quite work because we have Jesus’s own teachings on the topic, found in John’s
>>fourteenth chapter of his Gospel:
>> Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
>>Jesus clarified this to Philip: Douay Rheims = John
>>14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us.
>>14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known
>>me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the
>>Father?
>>14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words
>>that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth
>>the works.
We had kind of agreed on this thread to use the KJV, if you had been participating you would know that, oh well.
Earlier you talked about Moses and the brass serpent on the pole as a similitude of Jesus and how we must look to him for salvation (Which I completely concur with BTW) but you admitted that God uses similes to teach us how things are, and will be. In John 17 (also mentioned earlier in this thread.) Jesus is drawing similes between his mission and the Disciples mission, his relationship with the father and the relationship the disciples should have.
John 17 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/17) 18-23
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
I have lost track of how many times on this thread I have quoted these scriptures, maybe I should set up a macro (grin). In these five scriptures, Jesus draws the same simile over and over between the oneness he and God the father share and the oneness the disciples will share. You made the point earlier about God teaching with similes this is one. The disciples truly were of one heart one might and one mind.
So, here we are, the end of another post. You are calling me names and denigrating my church.
Me, I hope you come closer to that God who gave you birth. Go with God.
>>DelphiUser that told me I should “get a hobby.”
I though it was another hobby LOL!
restornu,
I put on an official mormon spy disguise and went undercover
to witness secret oaths, rituals, signs, occultic symbols,
underwear, temple garb, etc. Thanks for asking!
ampu
ROTFLOL! I know where this is going, but I let you ellaborate. This ought to be good...
Where’s the popcorn...
We have posted scriptures, but you refuse to post anything except your own words, so we really can’t take you seriously unless something changes.
Thanks for sharing that. I have just question, (sorry to butt in restornu), and I hope you don't mind me asking, cause it's kinda personal... but it's been my experience that there are a people who leave the church in their teens because they fall into some kind of sin, usually heavy morality issues, that they don't think they can return from, (CC's experience was similar to this - sorry to bring up the letter color, but it goes to the point) and because of their youth and lack of an unshaken testimony of Christ, they don't understand the atonement Of Jesus Christ and it's healing. I'm not saying you fall into this category, there are others who just get bored with church and move on to more exciting things. Again, I don't want to imply anything, but since you brought it up, could you tell us further your reasons for disaffiliation at the age of 16?
Thanks.
Thanks for replying color.
The very act of trespassing in the House of the Lord would mean that the trespassor is under the influence of the opposition!
That aside your comments are very childish.
How can you say that, each of our backgrounds helps each other to understand where another is coming from, how we arrive in our thinking!
While we would occasionally attend Church It wasn’t until I was about 8 that my Mother decided to become truly active again. From that time until I was 16 I attended and participated fully in all Church activities, was a Boy Scout, did baptism for the dead and all the other stuff a young Mormon would do.
It seems your mother caught fire in her faith, but you were caught up in the middle of this intensity.
Did you ever have a testimony?
Adam's Place in the Order of the Worthies. - 387Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man.
He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action.
The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. HC V3-P386
The sign of Apostasy.
I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity:
That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.
The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man.About this time, in reply to many inquiries, I also gave an explanation of the Priesthood, and many principles connected therewith, of which the following is a brief synopsis:
You say, “Each of our backgrounds helps each other to understand where another is coming from, how we arrive in our thinking!”
I don’t see why that would matter at all, (How I arrive at my thinking), unless you are trying to figure out ways to attack me personally or in some way discount my feelings due to some detail of my personal life.
I’d rather you just addressed the issues I’ve brought up in a direct manner instead of trying to put me in some neat little box in your mind.
Never the less, I will give out a little more background when I respond to Sevenbak in a bit.
As for my Mother, the reality was that she was beginning to worry she would catch fire from her guilt, and had better do something about it, rather than that she had any deep belief at that time. But as I said, I will not go any deeper into my personal family matters, it would not be appropriate to do that in a public forum, in my opinion.
I didn’t disaffiliate at 16.
You very much misunderstand my testimony. I said at 16 I met a Mormon man who told me that he had received a revelation from God in connection w/ me being chosen as his eternal companion. I went to my Bishop and to the Lord with my concern. I was told by my Bishop that the correct thing to do would be to marry him...even though I was effectively raped.
In those days in the Church, women were being taught that to be lose your chastity was such a transgression, that it was preferable to lose your life itself in defense of your virtue! I went to my Bishop, to confesses this “transgression” and was told the only way to make this right was to marry the man IN THE TEMPLE, which I did. I spent the next seven years honoring my Temple covenants and bearing two children and becoming pregnant for a third time all while being a faithful member.
It was by becoming knowledgeable about my “husband’s” iniquity that I left HIM. I still maintained my status as an active Mormon, and indeed married a Mormon man at age 25. My new husband and I began looking into being married in the Temple...but I was already sealed to #1 and had children born in the covenant. This made our eternal destiny pretty much destitute of hope. I gave up my attendence and activity then at about age 26.
I never “fell” into a sinful state. I was a faithful married woman who eventually learned to drink coffee (which along with my inactivity was what separated me from Mormonism). I started a study of alternative religions such as Buddism, Sufiism, New Age, Astrology and even Spiritism and Witchcraft. I never joined any of those practices, I simply studied them....never finding truth nor fulfillment.
At age 45 when life had finally become burdensome to a point that I thought I had no reason to continue living, I finally had reached a point that I turned to Christianity. I had always avoided anything to do with the Bible or Christ (other than as an historical teacher). Mormonism had instilled in me a deep distrust for the correctness of the Bible.
At age 45 I finally realized that I could be free of the wages of sin, I could be set free from trying to be perfect and fit the mold someone else was trying to put me into. I accepted Jesus Christ’s atonement, and became His servant.
Everything I have is from Him, everything I worship is through Him. I try to make myself small in His glory. The focus is no longer on me and my adherence to man-made codes of behavior.
Hope that clears up my lifeline.....Wherever did you get the notion I left Mormonism at age 16?
I don’t see why that would matter at all, (How I arrive at my thinking), unless you are trying to figure out ways to attack me personally or in some way discount my feelings due to some detail of my personal life.
Sorry if you missunderstood me sometimes these conversations are opperating on different levels at the same times!
And background is important because I might just think you are ratical anit LDS, or not really and X-LDS trust me their have been those who posed as LDS and were not just a instigator and some truely have trouble with the faith!
So in the course of the coversation one gets to know it who you are talking to is legit!
If you are a person who just fell away from the Church I am not out to get you but to understand you!
What are we Mormons going to do, make you eat green jello with Carrots on top of it.
If you think there is some mormon conspiracy to take over america, you got some tin-foil issues you need to deal with. As far as good, conservative, christian people are concerned, you are lucky to live in a mormon neighborhood with mormon neighbors. Yes, maybe they bring a Book of Mormon or a movie about the family by every now and then, but they seem to also shovel the driveways of widows and old people, help people with other work, and generally improve the neighborhood.
But, you are right, they are obviously trying to impose green jello with carrots on all of us in America.
Further, I don’t know what mormon wives are crying out of fear of not being admitted into the celestial kingdom because there husbands don’t like them, but that is not a mainstream belief, nor is it supported by the whole of mormon doctrine.
What a distored view you have af various times of your life yet you are so intelligent that is odd CC.
When did you leave for good?
I do believe that he was addressing Liberty Rattler with that question; he included you in the “To” list because he mentioned you in the post.
In any case, thanks for sharing a little about your perspective. It rends my heart that you underwent such an experience; and to the extent that Mormons were to blame, I am ashamed.
It does not weaken my testimony of my beliefs; but it does make me lament the weakness of man.
Best regards.
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