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Heard the one about the Mormon President?
London Times ^ | 2-16-07 | Gerard Baker

Posted on 02/16/2007 1:03:23 PM PST by SJackson

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To: pray4liberty
"If you profess in Jesus as your Savior, you don't have anything to worry about ;). It's a good thing that our salvation doesn't depend on us!

As for Mitt Romney, he sounds impressive and much more decent than the alternatives. However the liberals don't appreciate anything or anyone who is decent. They want the 'anything goes' candidate."

Some of the folks commenting here seem to read the Bible a little differently than I do. Mormons (myself included)do believe that our salvation depends just a little bit on what we do; "Without works, faith is dead." Works aren't enough, can't be enough no matter how many works or how much work they are, but we see them as a necessary downpayment for the mercy and grace of God. If we do the best we can, he'll know that. If we don't, he'll know that, too.

Funny thing, while I'm defending my religion, and the specific system of beliefs it involves, I'm not too hyped on Mitt Romney myself. He's been too liberal for my taste, and his conservatism is a bit late in coming. Sort of like the death-bed conversion Mormons don't particularly like to see approved by Baptists. I know many of those are genuine, but I believe many are not, too. Glad I don't have to judge them, but I'm going to have to see some "works" before I change my judgement of Mr. Romney. For those who've said similar things, my only real comment is approximately "Well Said!"
81 posted on 02/18/2007 2:37:20 PM PST by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: Vindibudd

We understand the scriptures differently. The Savior paid the price through His atonement. My life and my keeping His commandments because He has told us to do so, is my choice and my faith.

James 2:

17 Even so afaith, if it hath not bworks, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


82 posted on 02/18/2007 3:24:16 PM PST by sevenbak
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To: Old Student

It is called Christainity. There are many "true" Christian churches; they have in common a belief in the tenets of the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. Sorry, Mormons don't make the cut.


83 posted on 02/18/2007 8:00:11 PM PST by gobus1
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To: Vindibudd

>>Uh no, I as a Baptist do not believe that Baptists are the only one and true Christian
>>church. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics et al, do not claim to be the
>>one and only Christian church.

Lets test this a little bit, shall we?

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_true.htm
The Encyclopedia of American Religions 1 lists 1,588 religious denominations, sects, faith groups, organizations, etc. Most are currently operating in North America; a few are defunct but have been recently active. The vast majority of them consider themselves to be Christian. Some of these groups believe that they are the only true Christian church.

So, most churches have at one time at least claimed to be the “One True Church”.

From SRC FAQ Collection:
The major historical denominations have largely patched up their differences. While there are still some difference between the Arminian/Wesleyan, Lutheran, and Reformed traditions, you don't have the name-calling that was present in the 19th Cent, and these churches generally recognize each other as legitimate (except for issues of modernism). However some of the "non-denominational" churches continue to insist loudly that they are the only true church.

Lutherans: So Lutherans used to say they were the only true church, and while they don’t now, they don’t refute that they once said so, so it’s still technically a doctrine.
Catholics: Only one and true church (http://www.justforcatholics.org/a71.htm )
Methodists: I have relatives, who are Methodists, and in fact my parents converted from Methodism, and I have been told by Methodists that they are “The one true church”, all while they were damning me to hell for not belonging to their church, much like you have here.
Baptists: Only true church… (http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistsandtheology.htm )
From Baptists, and their theology: At the heart of the Landmark movement led by J. R. Graves (1820–93) and others was a conviction that Baptists are the only true church in a New Testament sense and that it was a compromise of that fact for Baptists to enter into relationships with non-Baptists.

>>Mormons do. You do not even know what you believe.

Well, somebody here is indeed talking through their hat, but this increasingly theoretical person would not be me.

>>This is what Christians believe: A person can confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior on their death bed and gain entrance into Heaven.

Where is that written? or are you referring to the Thief on the cross next to Jesus? Jesus promised him that he would be with him that day in paradise, and paradise is where we wait to be judged. Jesus did not say “Today shalt thou be with me in heaven”

>>Not so with Mormons, you believe in different levels of Heaven

Degrees of heaven is a Biblical concept
Try 2 Corr 12:2 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_cor/12/2#2)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

How about 1 Corr 15:41 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/41#41 )
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

So, the Bible speaks of Several degrees of Glory, which is what we believe.

>>and furthermore, you also believe there is no such thing as Hell.

Second Nephi 9:19
19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he adelivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Do you really have any idea what we believe? Now Our concept of hell may be a little different then yours, but I’m willing to be there is diversity there among other Christians as well.

>>Mormons are blasphemers

I guess, if you say so, I’ll just have to take your word for it (baseless assumption)

>>just because Jews called Jesus a blasphemer does not make your blasphemy against him A-OK.

You would be correct were I actually blaspheming (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Blaspheme)
Blaspheme –
1. to speak impiously or irreverently of (God or sacred things).
2. to speak evil of; slander; abuse.
3. to speak irreverently of God or sacred things; utter impieties.

>>By the way, Ad Hominem attack is not simply name calling, it is attacking a person's character. You attacked my character. Therefore you attacked me personally rather than my position.

Ad Hominem (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ad%20Hominem)
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I responded to your argument. I Questioned your logic. I did Question your conservative credentials as one who is not using logic. I stand by those characterizations as my perception of your arguments by me.

I did not attack you personally that would be something like “You mother wears army boots” or some such drivel. An “Ad Homonym” attack is looked down upon on this forum as it usually takes the form of “Name calling” if I am not allowed to question your logic when you are clearly being illogical, such a ban is ridiculous. If you feel that I have broken the rules, please bring in the Admin Moderator, if not then you complaint is hollow posturing. You attacked my religion first, and the Admins tend to look on that with a jaundiced eye.

I believe anyone reading our posts would realize that I have substantively responded to your arguments, and not just called you names. If such responses by me include questioning your logic, and therefore your conservative credentials, those statements should be taken in that context.

That said, humor is also important since you said we were similar to musims (I don’t see many suicidal Mormons, but…) I offer this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLyyO6Wp1ig


84 posted on 02/18/2007 8:04:31 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser

"That said, humor is also important since you said we were similar to musims (I don’t see many suicidal Mormons, but…) I offer this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLyyO6Wp1ig"

Bahahahaha. Nice one!


85 posted on 02/18/2007 8:34:16 PM PST by sevenbak
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To: sevenbak

I think you are more like the Scientologists. Maybe you can get Tom Cruise to do a movie about Mormonism. You could call it: "Mission Ridiculous."


86 posted on 02/19/2007 7:35:40 AM PST by gobus1
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To: Vindibudd
Let me be clear about this,

1-you DO acknowledge that Jesus and Satan are brothers right?

2-Even though Lucifer was an angel and not human nor divine?

You really should show me "Distorter of truth" Vindibudd that Lucifer just an angel?

Lucifer was a Light bearer or morning star who among all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job.38
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Lucifer
Literally the Shining One; also Light bringer or Son of the Morning.

Isa.14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

He was at one time part of the sons of God but because of pride he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven.

STOP WITH THE BUZZ WORDS Vindibudd

The name Lucifer appears only once in the Bible (Isa. 14: 12, but cf. Luke 10: 18).

Luke 10
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

After the war in Heaven Lucifer was known as Satan or the devil.

Rev. 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


So every time you or any others want to repeat this distortion remember 1st before Lucifer was the Devil he was also the once one of the sons of God!

87 posted on 02/20/2007 1:26:01 AM PST by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: gobus1
It is called Christainity. There are many "true" Christian churches; they have in common a belief in the tenets of the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. Sorry, Mormons don't make the cut.

Could you please show me where the Nicene Creed is in the Bible I can"t find it in scriptures?

88 posted on 02/20/2007 1:32:18 AM PST by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: restornu
....." he was also the once one of the sons of God!"......

He was an Angel, like Michael and Gabriel, but Jesus is God, the Creator. It's all for Him and BY HIM!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD. A little later it says the Word became flesh. Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are a triune, complete, single God. Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. He said "I and the Father are One".

Anyone making Jesus out to be less than God will have some trouble on Judgment Day. He has the keys to Heaven and Hell.

The thief on the cross was not a Mormon, wasn't baptized, didn't do any good works, and yet was saved while nailed to a cross, not because he went to a certain church of a certain denomination, but for what he confessed with his mouth.

I have never heard the Mormon explanation for the murder of the wagon train men, women, and children out west. If the wagon train people had been allowed to live, there wouldn't be a Mormon church today. The whole religion is based on a massacre to cover up other crimes.

89 posted on 02/20/2007 1:58:13 AM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles
Thank you for trying to work with scripture in most we will have to agree to disagree but I will back up my answer with the scriptures!

1- .." he was also the once one of the sons of God!"......

....." he was also the once one of the sons of God!"...... He was an Angel, like Michael and Gabriel, but Jesus is God, the Creator. It's all for Him and BY HIM!

Lucifer/Satan was one of the morning stars that sang among the sons of God, unless you want to deny the scriptures! Job 38:7, Isa.14:12, Luke 10: 18, Rev.12:7-9

2- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD. A little later it says the Word became flesh.

Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are a triune, complete, single God.

I believe the Godhead are one in Mind and 3 distinct personages!

Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. He said "I and the Father are One".

I believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in mind.

Anyone making Jesus out to be less than God will have some trouble on Judgment Day. He has the keys to Heaven and Hell.

I believe if they are all one mind in the Godhead how does that make another less than God

3- The thief on the cross was not a Mormon, wasn't baptized, didn't do any good works, and yet was saved while nailed to a cross, not because he went to a certain church of a certain denomination, but for what he confessed with his mouth.

The theif resides in paradice where all of God's children go after they die to wait judgement day unless they are caught up into spirit prison than they reside there.

Now the theif on the cross was saved but which degree of glory he would reside in we don't know because we don't have all the scriptures so we do not know the final out come, but he was saved!

4-I have never heard the Mormon explanation for the murder of the wagon train men, women, and children out west. If the wagon train people had been allowed to live, there wouldn't be a Mormon church today. The whole religion is based on a massacre to cover up other crimes.

What is known was a few members took upon themselves without authorizations from the Church.

90 posted on 02/20/2007 2:49:25 AM PST by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: restornu

It is Doctrine, not Scripture. The point is, it is the centuries old canon of the Church and is a simple summation of the ESSENTIALS of the Christian faith. Theologically, doctrinally, and ecclesiologically speaking, if you do not accept the tenets of the Creeds, you are a SECT or CULT.

You can whine all day about what is or isn't specifically in Scripture. That isn't the point. It is about doctrine, tradition, and belief.Most of what Mormons believe not only isn't in Scripture, it isn't even in good science fiction.


91 posted on 02/20/2007 3:37:18 AM PST by gobus1
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To: gobus1
1- It is Doctrine, not Scripture. The point is, it is the centuries old canon of the Church and is a simple summation of the ESSENTIALS of the Christian faith. Theologically, doctrinally, and ecclesiologically speaking, if you do not accept the tenets of the Creeds, you are a SECT or CULT.

I understand your belief of this but by whose authority did this become doctrine? and who's doctrine is it?

This may have been agreed upon and practiced for centuries, but can you show me where Jesus or Apostes received this in revelation?

2- You can whine all day about what is or isn't specifically in Scripture. That isn't the point.

It has nothing to do with whining etc it has to do with what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

3- It is about doctrine, tradition, and belief.

Most of what Mormons believe not only isn't in Scripture, it isn't even in good science fiction.

That may be your position but it has no substance too it!

By your own words I know you really don't understand LDS belief because one cannot use the natural man reasoning to have understanding of things which are of the Spirit of the Lord, it is also the language to receive things which come from the Lord!

Cheers!

92 posted on 02/20/2007 4:29:43 AM PST by restornu (Teach them correct principals and let them govern themselves ~ Joseph Smith)
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To: restornu

Once again, and finally, Mormons are lying when they call themselves Christians. Their doctrine is contrary to Christian belief and to Biblical teaching. Even the Devil can quote Scripture and speak the name of Jesus.


93 posted on 02/20/2007 6:35:11 AM PST by gobus1
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To: sevenbak
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
-John 3:16
It does not say, "that whoever believes in him and does a lot of really nice things to prove it shall not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus on the cross said that he would be with the thief that day in Paradise. So you people saying that he didn't go to the best level of heaven are in some hot water if Christ didn't qualify for the best "level" of heaven. Or it could be that there is no such thing different stages of Heaven.

You are NOT Christians. You are MORMONS. There are massive amounts of doctrinal differences between the two.
94 posted on 02/20/2007 7:15:50 AM PST by Vindibudd
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To: Vindibudd

"You are NOT Christians. You are MORMONS. "

You say so, so it must be true.


95 posted on 02/20/2007 12:27:40 PM PST by sevenbak
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To: sevenbak

No, not just because I say so, but rather because the facts of what you believe versus what Christians believe are indisputable. You are no more Christian than mustard is ketchup. Both are condiments and that is where the similarity ends.


96 posted on 02/20/2007 1:00:31 PM PST by Vindibudd
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To: Vindibudd

I'll take the faith of a mustard seed over the juice of a tomato whenever possible.

To each his own.

Go with God.


97 posted on 02/20/2007 1:07:23 PM PST by sevenbak
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To: SJackson

I always enjoy reading the London papers' take on our American elections.


98 posted on 02/20/2007 1:11:02 PM PST by Ciexyz (Amazing Grace the film, in theaters Feb 23rd, about abolishing slave trade in Britain.)
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To: DelphiUser

I thought Jim posted guidelines (around the time of the Salt Lake City Olympics) that he didn't want to see any posts specifically attacking anyone's religion. And I got the impression that was because there were so many attacks on Mormon religious beliefs on this board. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.


99 posted on 02/20/2007 1:16:08 PM PST by Ciexyz (Amazing Grace the film, in theaters Feb 23rd, about abolishing slave trade in Britain.)
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To: YoungAmerican84
Dirty Harry's a Mormon?

The Church is for imperfect people striving to become perfect in Christ. Some have further to go than others.

Yes, we do allow liberals to be baptized into the Church. :-)

Speaking for myself, I hope that active membership would tend to correct those mistaken political ideas. Some don't seem to get it though.

100 posted on 02/20/2007 1:26:12 PM PST by TChris (The Democrat Party: A sewer into which is emptied treason, inhumanity and barbarism - O. Morton)
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