Confusion hampered search for Kims

The Sunday Oregonian ^ | 12/17/2006 | PETER SLEETH, STEVE SUO, MICHELLE ROBERTS AND ELIZABETH SUH

[surfer]

Yes crater lake was very sad...indeed.

You might want to re-read my post...that wasn't intended as a compliment to Sara R...and I can't comment about her honesty I just feel she truly messed up here...way beyond what someone should have in her position.

[VRWC For Truth]

Don't depend on the government to save you. A Conservative tenant demonstrated throughout history.

[woodbutcher]

Don't depend on the government to save you. A Conservative tenant demonstrated throughout history.

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OK, fine. An excelent point.

So let's totally disband SAR and save the money.

Let's also disband the state police and the others as well.

Everyman for himself.

[surfer]

BTW if she were honest she would have already resigned...so either she isn't honest or she is a democrat...

[Drango]

So let's totally disband SAR and save the money...

I say we hire 150 more SAR employees, professionalize the force by doubling their salary, invest in 200 more helicopters and crews and hold drills twice a week.

Then everytime a traveler is missing from Seattle to San Francisco...we launch every helicopter and mobilize the national guard too. Plus the State police and Boy Scouts. No matter if they just decided to hold up in Ashland to see a play. We must launch! Government can make us safer is my motto.

[poseiden]

This is a great question. also I wonder; would I of died with the same limited resources and stuck in the same place as Mr. Kim.

As far as the rescue operation goes there were a few searchers and not enough threads going back to enough rescue managers (a tiered central command). Literally a thousand logging spur roads. I personally never would have expected to be successful. Team work...

As the searcher; You can't even be sure with the Kim's that your actually looking for some body. May be they went to Hawaii. My uncles long time wife disappeared at a party every body's searching and worried, newspapers reporting the disappearance. she had run off to salt lake for a fling. terribly embarrassing.

What if I was mister Kim: same resources, same place, same weather, my chances would be... slightly better or dead sooner.

[woodbutcher]

Sure. A rhetorical question to Peter Sleeth, woodbutcher, Mt. Hood SAR and you. "Would Mr. Kim have died if anyone of you had been in charge?"

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That kind of thinking is exactly some people can never discover the truth.

That remark is like if your wife tells you to take out the garbage, you ask her how often it would get picked up if she was driving the truck.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the matter under discussion.

If your thinking had any logic whatsoever, a judge and jury would every single one have have driven a car to destruction to sit on a fatal crash case, every one of them would have had to practice surgery to sit on a medical case (the guy died because he got too much anesthesia; judge, demonstrate for us how you would administer anesthesia).

Your theory is that unless you have done it yourself, you are not qualified to make a judgment?

I saw a guy crash a C-47, killing everyone on board. Was I qualified to say that he did a lousy job of flying that airplane because was never checked out in that airplane?
But none of that is the point. The point is that whether I have ever run a SAR, checked out in a C-47 or your wife drives a garbage truck, has nothing to do with the discussion. Learn to follow the train of thought. It makes it easier.

[WestCoastGal]

I jumped over here from the other thread....thanks for the ping and giving this a thread of it's own.

Thankfully these problems are made known to the general public. It only confirms the fact that if you find yourself in a difficult situation pray that your family and friends do everything possible to help.

This is not only for those lost in the woods or mountains of Oregon..............but even for those just in the hospital or other situations that you don't have complete control over. Someone needs to be watching out for you no matter what the situation is these days. You cannot count completely on those "in charge" or others.

Never go on a trip like the Kims without staying in contact with family every day of your whereabouts.

[NittanyLion]

Sure. A rhetorical question to Peter Sleeth, woodbutcher, Mt. Hood SAR and you. "Would Mr. Kim have died if anyone of you had been in charge?"

Of course it's impossible to prove a negative, but I can promise you that I wouldn't be giving interviews where I stated that I was totally overwhelmed by the whole process.

[woodbutcher]

Again you miss the point so far that it ceases to be worth discussion, but here goes one more time.

They were not seeing a play. The cell phone had been pinned down to a certain area. A local found tire tracks.

That is the point at which everything went downhill. Not before then. Before that point, it was total guesswork.

At that point, there were real clues.

There were people there that are professional trackers who could have followed tire tracks to the end of the world, as they followed Kin's tracks later on.

But had those same people been told about the tire tracks when they were first found, the trackers would have got to him before he set out on foot.

Surfer, if I have the sequence of events out of order here, would you please correct me. I am going to go ride my horse.

[woodbutcher]

statistics are so misleading. I never run into foreigners from out of state unless there being carefully shaperoned by experienced oregon guides. since Oregon mountain men are in the woods 100% of the time and foriegners are in the woods 2% of the time clearly an occasinal lost Mountain man will scew the statistics to make it look like city people are absolutly brilliant woodsman.

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I figured out all by myself that more Oregonians than Californians live in OR.

However, the constant thread here is that no one who lives in the mountains or even in OR for that matter is so stupid as to make such a dumb mistake. It takes an idiot from CA.

Actually, if you look at the numbers, they are even more harsh that it appears on the surface.

Only 2% of the lost were from CA. 8% were from WA. Now WA has some pretty rough country and the WA residents should be every bit as wise as those from OR, although from this thread it does appear that is not really possible.

I guess if you really wanted to know what the statistics mean, you would have to have an exact count of how many visitors OR had from CA during 2005, how many of them went into the woods on camping, hiking or sight seeing trips, etc.

I have an idea, although I really know nothing about that area other than a very brief visit several years ago, that there are a lot of CA sportsmen that hunt and fish in OR and I expect there are a lot who do not get guides.

Do you have the numbers on how many CA residents hold non resident hunting and fishing licenses?

[ansel12]

"The lock was a damaged lock and I believe it was shown on CNN. The CNN coverage was after the Kim's car was removed from the area - they are saying the towing vehicle hit and damaged the gate and lock upon leaving the area...

but who knows..."




FROM the article (and all other recent sources)
"The gate was open, BLM officials would later acknowledge, because the bureau had failed to follow normal procedure and close it for the winter"


The article tells us, the BLM people admitted they did not lock the gate.

If you notice some of these guys are making a lot of argument, but they don't seem to have read the article, bray for instance doesn't give any clues he read it.

[ASOC]

Tom-Tom, should I turn here?

Tom-Tom, is this road safe?

Tom-Tom, the road is snowed over and has rocks blocking the entrance, should I turn here or turn back?

Bad map = bad luck? I think not. I do have some sympathy for the family, but was it bad luck or bad decision making?

[surfer]

This is a good article...

http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml?oregonian?yedcsn&coll=7

[Drango]

Again you miss the point so far that it ceases to be worth discussion

I bow to your superior debating skills, your critical thinking, your ultra crisp reasoning, your ability to apportion fault/blame, your knowledge of SAR, and your ability to see thru the "fog of uncertainty" with 20/20 hindsight.

[surfer]

read the article in post 114...it helps.

[poseiden]

Its nice to have some one to help you and hopefully not take advantage of you. But, I would never expect to actualy be rescued. I would rescue myself.
Winners do quit. They quit so that they can come back and win another day.

[poseiden]

sorry Mr. woodbucther I don't need numbers. a Ca sportsman wood be, a cut above, a typical LA or sanfran nerd, even among nerds there skill sets do very. A Ca sportsman by definition has some skills and would have made fewer clear errors in judgment.

True story
I took this computer techno geek nerd from LA (spent his whole life indoors) for a hike one time beatiful day great over look of the sea and he said "is this like a movie?"

[ansel12]

She makes a good point.



"The odds of survival drop as time passes. This is why counties tend not to charge a fee for rescue services, despite a state law allowing them to do so.

"As far as I know, nobody charges and nobody wants to," says Georges Kleinbaum, the state search and rescue coordinator. If people worry about getting billed, he explains, they're more likely to delay calling for help, whether for an injured companion, missing friend or lost child.

Besides, he says, most rescues cost less than you think. Volunteers provide extra manpower, and the military can pitch in as part of normal training and duties."

[ansel12]

"True story
I took this computer techno geek nerd from LA (spent his whole life indoors) for a hike one time beatiful day great over look of the sea and he said "is this like a movie?"






You do run into the nerds, you also posted this quote from one of the guys you took outdoors.

"I took a technophile for a hike in the woods once and he was like "Wow this is just like virtual reality".