How Will the U.S. Feed the Ethanol Appetite?

Tad Patzek, etal. then you must know that ethanol is a complete waste of money, time, and energy.

I am familiar with his works, and familiar with some of his weak points. I also know that science is such a small part of what matters. I know you can get a positive energy balance with ethanol under the proper conditions...but that is irrelevant. Creating the market to accept biofuels is more important and there are some good ones out there. You have to consider the dollars spent of pushing ethanol over the years, mostly by people who never thought it would make it to market, as part of the investment. Those pave the way to the biofuels that are truly a good deal...and that is just what you have to do these days. And that is what really pissed off the Democrats...you took their money machine and made it into something that had better really soon...make money.

I don't support ethanol beyond the point that it is a name that has good recognition and will open the doors to better biofuels. If you could get people behind the scenes to talk with you honestly, they'd tell you about the same. The ethanol market just has a lot of bastards in it....but they are our bastards...and they wear John Deere 'gimme' caps and not turbans.

I am familiar with his works, and familiar with some of his weak points. I also know that science is such a small part of what matters.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Corn based ethanol is a complete and utter waste of energy and money. Science is exactly how one can prove that. It is elementary thermodynamics. Once you've accepted that corn based ethanol is a complete waste of energy and money, then why force other taxpayers to spend money "investing" in this ridiculous money-losing endeavor?

I know you can get a positive energy balance with ethanol under the proper conditions...but that is irrelevant.

No...it is not irrelevant. It it 100% what the discusion of energy independence MUST be about. If there is no giant positive energy balance from corn based ethanol, than not only does it not make the US less dependent on fossil fuels, but it makes the US MORE dependent, since the excess fossil fuels to create the ethanol will have to come from abroad.

Creating the market to accept biofuels is more important and there are some good ones out there.

This would be wonderful news if it were true. But you don't need to create a market for biofuels if they are cost competive with fossil fuels. If you produce a biofuel with as much energy as a gallon of gasoline and can make a profit selling it a $1.00 per gallon, the market will rush to you. The problem is that you can't. There are no "good ones out there."

You have to consider the dollars spent of pushing ethanol over the years, mostly by people who never thought it would make it to market, as part of the investment. Those pave the way to the biofuels that are truly a good deal...and that is just what you have to do these days.

So your earlier argument that ethanol was a good investment has now morphed into "I know ethanol is a lousy investment with a negative return on investment, but really, this is the only way to get the market to accept different biofuels...but those fuels will be efficient...I promise." I'm not buying that argument. If the next generation fuels will be efficient, then YOU develop them on your dime and stop wasting MY tax dollars on corn based ethanol, which you now admit is a waste.

And that is what really pissed off the Democrats...you took their money machine and made it into something that had better really soon...make money.

Huh...lots of corn state Democrats support ethanol. I really don't care if the Democrats are pissed off that we are wasting energy on ethanol or not. I can tell you that it pisses me off whenever any party wastes money on something as ridiculous as corn based ethanol.

I don't support ethanol beyond the point that it is a name that has good recognition and will open the doors to better biofuels.

Then you've changed your tune from your earlier posts. And I support ethanol 100% as long as you will stop wasting my tax dollars on it. I support any energy investment that is made by private companies trying to make private dollars. Some will succeed. Some will fail. The market will determine that.

If you could get people behind the scenes to talk with you honestly, they'd tell you about the same. The ethanol market just has a lot of bastards in it....but they are our bastards...and they wear John Deere 'gimme' caps and not turbans.

That is the dumbest comment you've posted yet. My opposition to ethanol has nothing to do with who is or is not a bastard. It has to do with how to get energy to the people cost effectively. Incidentally, you should learn the difference between a turban and a kaffiyeh. I also would rather buy oil from someone in a kaffiyeh, than from someone in a John Deere cap who was trying to rip me off by selling me ethanol.

Fortunately those are not the only choices. If you want to waste taxpayer money on subsidizing some form of energy produced in the USA, at least make it fossil fuels instead of wasteful, unprofitable, and inefficient biofuels.

jas3

I am a believer in big government programs when they turn some big returns back to the taxpayer....or rather that small group of taxpayer that pays a net positive amount of taxes.

But it is clearly not possible to know in advance which big government "investments" will have positive returns, which is exactly why governments can never be trusted to make rational decisions. The subsidies for corn based ethanol are a perfect example of how the thermodynamics and economics of ethanol were completely overwhelmed by the politics. This is a big government program that will have no return to the "investors" and will simply channel money from taxpayers to corn farmers. I would rather that the Feds simply write the corn farmers a check instead of having them waste energy making ethanol.

the members of the "Idiocracy" must not be trusted to make their own investment decisions.

I could not agree with you more.

I was stating your opinion, not agreeing with you. I believe that the people of the United States MUST be trusted to make their own decisions. It they don't, then fools who neglect to even review basic science will completely destroy their capital by "investing" their assets in ethanol schemes that are nothing more than a wealth redistribution scheme from taxpayers to farmers. It is the height of arrogance for you to suggest that you should be able to tax citizens and "invest" their money for them. I was wrong when I called you a socialist. You are a Maoist.

jas3

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