Posted on 10/23/2006 1:11:20 PM PDT by Lunatic Fringe
Wish I had that money back, it would come in handy.
And when people walk down the street and get mugged and robbed, it's their own fault for walking down the street, and they shouldn't whine and cry about it. And when people invest in a company, and the management lies to them, cooks the books, and robs them of their retirement investment that they worked years and years for, that's the peoples fault too, and they shouldn't whine and cry about it, right?
You say this, yet I still am aware that murder is a worse crime than theft - something which you are apparently unable to grasp.
I'm looking at the results of the theft, of the devastation it caused on thousands and thousands of lives, not just the action itself, something which you are apparently unable to grasp.
Sure. So?
Try stealing from Uncle Sam by not paying your taxes. For cheating on your tax return for a few dollars you will get the book thrown at you.
Sure. So?
Stallings stole more than a few dollars. He is lucky he did not get life.
I assume you mean Skilling. Life was not on the table.
I never invested in Enron so I do not know what it is like to be wiped out at age 65 when you are about to retire even if you are foolish enough to put all your money in one basket (ENRON).
Again, if you were on the verge of retirement but were stupid enough to have your entire life savings invested in a single, highly volatile growth stock you were begging for it.
The company went down not because of inept management but of grand theft.
This statement means that you did not follow the story very closely.
Don't worry about Stallings; he'll be out in a few years and will still have plenty of time to enjoy the many millions he still has stashed away.
Assuming you mean Skilling, I don't know why you're commenting on a story you haven't done any real reading on.
Not only did he receive the 24.3 year sentence, which carries a required federal minimum of 85% service guaranteeing him 20.6 years behind bars, he was stripped of all his assets.
He has no millions to enjoy and he won't be seeing the outside of a prison until 2027.
As I said above, if someone is walking down the street with a $100 in his pocket and he is mugged, you can't say it's his fault.
But if someone walks down the street with their entire life savings in cash in a paper bag, they bear a little culpability for the aftermath.
And when people invest in a company, and the management lies to them, cooks the books, and robs them of their retirement investment that they worked years and years for, that's the peoples fault too, and they shouldn't whine and cry about it, right?
They are no different from any other investor in the company. I didn't invest my entire life savings in Enron. If they chose to do so, that was their own foolish decision.
Had they invested responsibly, they would have been like me - a couple of grand out of pocket on Enron stock. Not back at square one.
In fact, I have more reason to complain since I paid for all my Enron shares at market prices, while they got half their shares for free and the other half at a discount to the market price.
But I won't see a red cent and I chalk it up to experience. You know, the way a grown-up does.
I'm looking at the results of the theft, of the devastation it caused on thousands and thousands of lives
What "devastation" is that exactly? Losing a job? Plenty of people lose jobs every day.
Losing retirement money? Intelligent people don't put all their eggs in one basket. If you deliberately make yourself a sitting duck, you are the one who ruined your life, not some scapegoat.
Honestly, have a little pride and self-respect.
And if the victim has a weak heart, and suffers a stroke or heart attack as a result of the trauma of the theft, what does that do to all of your $100 vs. $100,000 arguments? You're playing "blame the victim" games, I'm talking about the results of the muggers actions. If a victim dies during a crime, the criminal is sentenced according to the results of his actions. It's not about his "intentions", and not about whether the victim should or should not have been carrying $100,000 with him, or should or should not have been walking down the street at midnight. In any case, it's not for you or the CEOs to decide what the victims should or should not have done.
They are no different from any other investor in the company. I didn't invest my entire life savings in Enron. If they chose to do so, that was their own foolish decision.
Ya, "blame the victim", version two (yawn). Those foolish retiree/investors probably thought that the company was being run by a competent and honest CEO, and not by crooks who were deliberately lying and stealing from them. I guess that was pretty foolish of them.
Had they invested responsibly, they would have been like me - a couple of grand out of pocket on Enron stock. Not back at square one.
Ya, blame the victim, version three (yawn). Who says they have to be back a square one? For a 65 or 70 year old, losing even 20% of a fixed retirement income can be devastating, particularly when it was stolen from them!
In fact, I have more reason to complain since I paid for all my Enron shares at market prices,
Oh, so you're the real victim here. I see.
while they got half their shares for free and the other half at a discount to the market price.
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?
But I won't see a red cent and I chalk it up to experience. You know, the way a grown-up does.
Ya ya, I know, you have a real big penis. Spare me the yardstick games and your particular little definition of what a "grown-up" is. Tell the 65 and 70 year olds about how you are so much more "grown-up" than they are.
What "devastation" is that exactly? Losing a job? Plenty of people lose jobs every day.
The "devastation" of loosing a large chuck of your retirement nest-egg, at age 65, because some crooked multi-millionair CEO wanted to add another few million to his own purse by lying and cheating and stealing. Maybe some elderly people can't just pick right up and get another job to make up for the years of saving that were stolen from them. Or maybe that part just didn't figure into your cavalier reckoning.
Intelligent people don't put all their eggs in one basket. If you deliberately make yourself a sitting duck, you are the one who ruined your life.
Blame the victim, version four (yawn).
..not some scapegoat.
Oh, so now the CEOs are scapegoats? I guess that means that they are the real victims here, huh (along with you)? If your statements were not so callous and pathetic, they would be laughable.
Honestly, have a little pride and self-respect.
Again, dude, what the hell are you talking about? I didn't loose a dime on Enron, so you are not talking to me. I'm talking about the massive devastation that was knowingly and intentionally caused to thousands of innocent people by a group of corrupt and greedy millionaires. All I've heard from you so far is "blame the victim", "suck it up", "get another job", "they should have known better", and "oh, those poor CEOs". "Pride and self-respect"? Maybe you should look those words up in the dictionary before you recommend that someone else get something that you don't seem to either have or understand.
Uh-huh. Of course, no one died as a result of Skilling putting together a bunch of dodgy partnership structures.
Those foolish retiree/investors probably thought that the company was being run by a competent and honest CEO, and not by crooks who were deliberately lying and stealing from them.
That wasn't foolish at all. Many people made the same incorrect assumption about Enron.
However, only fools invested all their money in Enron.
If I research a company and am convinced that they are well-run and will be very profitable, I still don't run out and put all my life savings in that one company.
That would be foolish indeed.
For a 65 or 70 year old, losing even 20% of a fixed retirement income can be devastating, particularly when it was stolen from them!
401(k)s are not fixed investment vehicles. Let's deal in facts.
Oh, so you're the real victim here. I see.
I lost money to Skilling's malfeasance, but I don't consider myself a victim. I made a bad equity bet, that's all. Lesson learned.
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?
Allow me to enlighten your deep, deep cluelessness. I'll explain it to you step by step.
A 401(k) is not, as you implied above, a fixed annuity. It is a tax-deferred investment vehicle that one can use to invest in fixed annuities if one desires, or in variable securities like shares of stock in a public company.
Employees can elect to invest a certain percentage of their pre-tax earnings into a number of investment options provided by their company or their company's plan administrator.
One of those options is usually the company's stock and that stock is usually offered at a discount.
Employers can, and generally do, choose to match their employees' contributions to the 401(k) with an equal amount of funds.
Companies can choose, and usually do choose, to pay that matching contribution in the form of the company's shares.
As a matter of historical fact, Enron employees had the option of spending their own contribution on discounted shares of Enron and Enron matched their contributions with free shsres of Enron stock.
So the Enron retirees who are complaining had a portfolio of Enron stock consisting of shares in Enron which they purchased at a discount to market value and an equal amount of shares of Enron which they received as free matching contributions.
Ya ya, I know, you have a real big penis. Spare me the yardstick games and your particular little definition of what a "grown-up" is. Tell the 65 and 70 year olds about how you are so much more "grown-up" than they are.
Bizarre comment.
I'm sure we all know teenagers who accept setbacks with stoicism and aplomb and I'm sure we all know seniors who whine like kids when they don't get a freebie or a discount.
There are many 70 year olds who are not remotely grown up.
Maybe some elderly people can't just pick right up and get another job to make up for the years of saving that were stolen from them.
They had every opportunity to prevent anyone stealing from them by diversifying their portfolio. Again, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone who figuratively put a box of money in the middle of a busy intersection and then walked away from it for 20 years and returned to find their box of money gone.
The person who stole the box of money clearly did an immoral, criminal thing.
But their act of leaving the money unattended in the intersection removes all sympathy.
They chose to "devastate" themselves.
I am currently saving money for my daughters' college educations. I have placed these funds in a diverse portfolio.
If I chose instead to put all that money in MSFT stock for 20 years and it turned out that MSFT was a huge fraud and I still sat there leaving those shares untouched as MSFT stock plunged to zero, that would mean that I was a fool who threw money away and deprived my kids of a college education I had planned to give them.
At any point along the curve I could have reallocated, I could have done the responsible, intelligent thing. But I neglected every opportunity that came my way until it all blew up in my face.
I'm talking about the massive devastation that was knowingly and intentionally caused to thousands of innocent people by a group of corrupt and greedy millionaires.
Again, Skilling and Lay didn't "intentionally" devastate anyone. Their intention was to keep Enron stock high and those pension plans fat - they had the bulk of their fortunes invested in Enron stock just like the employees. The collapse of Enron stock was completely unintentional on their part.
and "oh, those poor CEOs"
I wrote that? Really?
so you are not talking to me
No, I'm talking to people who were handed an enormous windfall for free and then blamed other people because they did not cash their chips in when they could have, but kept spinning the roulette wheel instead.
Maybe you should look those words up in the dictionary
You're full of advice for someone who is discussing a case, the details of which you are almost entirely ignorant.
Not only have you no notion of what a 401(k) is and how it works, but you have no knowledge of what Skilling, Lay and Fastow actually did at Enron, and you have no idea who the "victims" of Enron were.
You are correct. In Exodus just after the unveiling of the commandments and in the book of Numbers, the various laws and their punishments are expounded. I was making a comment on the fact that there are people who seem to eschew an absolute moral code in favor of their own moral code. They seem to establish a crime hierarchy with different weights given to different crime. And some even rationalize certain crimes in certain situations.
My point was that a crime is a crime. However in an attempt to post a pithy one-liner I failed to communicate my point clearly. Mea culpa.
-Chris
First, I never said that anyone died. I said that people are held responsible for the consequences of their crimes, regardless of their intentions (try to keep up, huh?). Second, you don't know that nobody died as a result of Skillings' intentional crimes. If even one elderly person suffered a stroke or other stress related trauma as a result of Skillings intentional crimes, and the effect that it had on their remaining, vulnerable years, then he is culpable in their injuries.
However, only fools invested all their money in Enron.
Probably so, but as I said before, if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron, and that 20% was intentionally stolen from them, it can still have severe consequences to them, especially if it represents years of savings, and they are not in a position to go out and replace it.
401(k)s are not fixed investment vehicles. Let's deal in facts.
Okay, 20% of the assets that they have available to them for retirement. Better?
I lost money to Skilling's malfeasance, but I don't consider myself a victim. I made a bad equity bet, that's all. Lesson learned.
While I understand that your whole frame of reference is based on me me me me me, this isn't about whether you consider yourself a victim. It's about whether the thousands of retirees who where lied to and cheated consider themselves victims. Let's see, if someone lies to me and cheats me, do I consider myself a victim? Well, gosh darn, I think I'd have to put that one down as a "yes" (as did the Justice Department).
Allow me to enlighten your deep, deep cluelessness. I'll explain it to you step by step.
Allow me to return the favor. I know what a 401K is, and I know how they work. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that every elderly person who purchased Enron stock did so through an employer matched 401K plan, or that they were employees of Enron, or that you are the only one who paid full price for their stock. When I said "Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know", I was specifically responding to your statement: "got half their shares for free and the other half at a discount to the market price". Try to keep up, huh?
Bizarre comment.
No, the term you are groping for is "sarcastic". Sorry it went over your head, I'll try to keep things dumbed down for you.
I'm sure we all know teenagers who accept setbacks with stoicism and aplomb and I'm sure we all know seniors who whine like kids when they don't get a freebie or a discount
Again, you seem to think that it's all about you. It's a lot easier to have "stoicism and aplomb" when you are 18 and at the beginning of your life than it is when you are 65 and in poor health. Maybe you can explain to me what not getting a freebie or a discount has to do with being lied to and stolen from (it should be an amusing read).
They had every opportunity to prevent anyone stealing from them by diversifying their portfolio.
Like, say, only putting 20% of their money into Enron? The 20% that was stolen from them?
Again, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone who figuratively put a box of money in the middle of a busy intersection and then walked away from it for 20 years and returned to find their box of money gone.
A colorful example, but I don't really see what that has to do with being lied to. If you are following the stats on a company, and the stats are an intentional lie, how is that like walking away from it for 20 years. Is that how you lost money, not paying attention? Or was it maybe that you were lied to? And where did this "20 years" stuff come from?
Again, Skilling and Lay didn't "intentionally" devastate anyone.......The collapse of Enron stock was completely unintentional on their part.
Ya, that's why they were found guilty and one of them is going to jail. (That's sacrasm again, I didn't want you to miss it.)
I wrote that? Really?
No, I believe the specific term you used was "scapegoat" (post #184, second to last line).
No, I'm talking to people who were handed an enormous windfall for free and then blamed other people because they did not cash their chips in when they could have, but kept spinning the roulette wheel instead.
They probably assumed that it was an honest game, and didn't know that the roulette wheel was rigged.
You're full of advice for someone who is discussing a case, the details of which you are almost entirely ignorant. Not only have you no notion of what a 401(k) is and how it works, but you have no knowledge of what Skilling, Lay and Fastow actually did at Enron, and you have no idea who the "victims" of Enron were.
First, I don't seem to remember giving you or anyone else any advice. I'm giving an opinion (if you're unsure of the difference, check the dictionary). Second, the only ignorance I see here is your "knowledge" of me. Third, I do know what a 401k is and how they work, having had several of them (surprise, you're not the only person in the world who has one or has had one). Fourth, all your pretty talk about how Skilling, Lay, and Fastow were just trying to "keep Enron stock high and those pension plans fat" plays as well with me as it did with the Justice Department. As you probably noticed, they didn't buy your malarkey either. Fifth, as far as me not having any idea who the "victims" of Enron were, I guess I'll just have to fall back on my previous question: "Dude, what the hell are you talking about?".
No, your argument is that it is less immoral to murder an innocent person than it is to steal from several stupid people.
It's a bad argument.
if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron
That's still a preposterous overallocation.
if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron
You're the one who raised the question of whether I was a victim or not. I don't really care.
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that every elderly person who purchased Enron stock did so through an employer matched 401K plan
Those are the ones who seem to be complaining.
Sorry it went over your head
I understood the point you were laboring to make - you just went about it bizarrely.
how is that like walking away from it for 20 years
In the 15 years preceding Enron's collapse various research analysts pointed out significant discrepancies in Enron's financial filings and the company's business practices were examined by regulators on more than one occasion. Quite famously, on a conference call that was reported in all the papers more than a year before teh collapse, Skilling engaged in a demented, profanity-laced tirade when he was unable to answer a direct and pointed question by an analyst.
If one fifth of my net worth were invested in a single company, I would probably follow the news regarding that company with great interest, looking for warning signals like investigations, adverse research, financial discrepancies and public meltdowns by key company officers.
Maybe you can explain to me what not getting a freebie or a discount has to do with being lied to and stolen from
A person who is angry when a stock they own trades to an economically unjustifiable price and then trades back down is a person who is angry over losing a freebie.
If a stock you own trades up to a price that seems unjustifiable, you sell it.
The market gave you a gift in a temporary burst of irrationality. If you fail to cash it in, you have only yourself to blame.
Like, say, only putting 20% of their money into Enron?
No, diversification is not putting one-fifth of your resources into a single growth stock. That would be a glaring textbook example of how not to diversify.
Is that how you lost money, not paying attention?
I don't know if this question is addressed to me personally or is a general question. I'll answer it generally - there are warning signals and people do lose money by not paying attention.
Ya, that's why they were found guilty and one of them is going to jail.
They were not found guilty of intentionally bankrupting Enron. Probably because, as I said, that was never their intent. They were found guilty of concealing and fabricating information in an attempt to preserve Enron's share price.
Again, if you actually understood the Enron saga, you wouldn't have made so many mistakes of fact on this thread.
...it's a victory when corrupt people go to prison.
When people like Skilling steer corporations, I would rather see my investments go under the mattress.
Which is obviosly a blow to our system.
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