Posted on 08/30/2006 4:50:28 AM PDT by RKV
"The immigration issue is not top of mind to the vast majority of Americans."
Lest they be forgotten......
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1675516/posts
Every poll I've seen the last two months has reflected a majority that favors a guest worker program as a way of dealing with those illegals who are here.
So, if you leave it up to the voters, Pence's plan would win in a walk.
I'll repeat what I told you months ago: You are strongly pro-law-enforcement on almost all issues . . . except this one.
WHY NOT THIS ISSUE? (Yelling on purpose.) Why are you so firmly against enforcing the existing laws WRT this issue?
This is beyond law enforcement. Neither the Congress, four Presidents, nor the American public seem to care about the enforcement of immigration laws. The genie's out of the bottle on deporting 12 million illegals. It is NOT going to happen.
So, efforts must now focus on what to do going forward.
Wrong on all counts.
1st - If there are laws, there is law enforcement. We are not talking about antiquated laws here.
2nd - Congress can be made to care about what the American people care about, and it is clear from most polls that the American people want illegal immigration laws enforced.
3rd - It is no more necessary to mass-deport 12 million than it is to ticket all 100 million traffic speeders in one weekend. (arright, I made up the 100 million figure, but I'm not wrong by very much, I betcha.) What you do is to BEGIN enforcing the law, and enforce it harder and harder until behavior changes. In this case, you keep enforcing the laws until the illegal immigration slows to a trickle. Then you keep enforcing at a level that keeps the boarder crossings at a trickle. No need for mass deportation.
It's the FEAR of being arrested and deported that will slow the invasion way down. Drive the fear up to the point at which the number of border crossers is very low.
At the same time, enforce the laws on employers who hire illegal aliens, and step up enforcement until there is a change of behavior. Then maintain a level of enforcement that continues to strike fear in the hearts of employers such that most of them stop hiring illegals.
It isn't necessary to have pure 100% law enforcement before you enforce the law, sink. Otherwise, the IRS would not exist. (Wait, that's a pleasant thought.)
Right back at you!
Most Americans favor a guest worker program, or don't care one way or another.
Tancredo may talk most about illegal immigration, but I think the record shows he is a strong conservative across the board.
Pretty much. FR is made up of 20,000 active members or so, and less than one-tenth of one percent post on the immigration threads. These are the ardent anti-immigrant posters (and, yes, most of them are anti-immigrant, not just anti-illegal immigrant).
They, and you, are not representative of the country at large, nor are you representative of the Republican Party. National security is the number one issue in the upcoming election, not immigration. That is what the Republicans will be re-elected on, in both the House and the Senate, not immigration.
You and I are not going to agree on this issue. I respect your position, and your ardent defense of your position. But we're not going to convince each other.
Thanks for the back-and-forth.
For anyone interested -
From mikepence.house.gov
THE HUTCHISON-PENCE PLAN: NO AMNESTY IMMIGRATION REFORM
Washington, Aug 30 -
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison and Congressman Mike Pence authored the following op-ed in the Washington Times on July 26, 2006 about the Hutchison-Pence Plan.
To access a Border Security Certification Summary, Executive Summary and Final Detailed Summary of the Hutchison-Pence Plan, please visit the links below right.
In the years we have served in our respective houses of Congress, there has never been an issue on which our colleagues have been so engaged and yet so far apart as illegal immigration and border security. The bills on this issue which passed in each house are miles apart.
We believe it is imperative that Congress find a responsible solution and enact comprehensive reform. To achieve this, many small groups are meeting in an effort to jump-start the negotiations between the House and the Senate. The president is engaged, as are House and Senate members. Rightfully so. Congress cannot walk away from a problem that so affects our country's future.
We are putting forth a proposal that we hope can be used as the basis for new discussions. Our plan is tough on border security, but it recognizes the need for a temporary-worker program that operates without amnesty and without growing into a huge new government bureaucracy.
Our plan begins with border reinforcement. The millions who come to our country seeking jobs to support their families are not a security threat to our nation, but the weaknesses in the nearly 7,000 miles of international border and 95,000 miles of shoreline have given terrorists, drug dealers and human traffickers an opening that is being exploited; this is a risk we cannot allow to continue. Part two of our plan is a temporary-worker program that is essential in order to fill jobs in our economy that are in high demand.
This program would commence only after the borders are fixed. Here's how our plan works:
First: Secure our borders
Before any new temporary-worker program can begin, our plan requires the president to certify that all mandated border-security measures are completed. The Hutchison-Pence proposal embraces the tough border-security measures of the House and Senate bills. It would add border patrol agents, drug enforcement agents and port-of-entry inspectors; end catch and release; add security fences and other physical barriers at critical points; and employ American technology, such as unmanned aerial surveillance vehicles.
Second: The Good Neighbor SAFE Visa and Ellis Island Centers
When the border has been declared secure, the Good Neighbor SAFE (Secure Authorized Foreign Employee) Visa will begin. This program offers noncitizens opportunities to fill jobs that employers attest to not being able to fill with Americans at market wage.
Under our plan, the estimated 12 million people currently residing illegally in America can come out of the shadows and earn a fair living by returning to their home countries to apply for a Good Neighbor SAFE Visa. This does not give amnesty to those currently in our country illegally.
Our plan would accomplish this by setting up a system of private employment placement agencies outside the United States (called "Ellis Island Centers"), licensed by the federal government, to match willing temporary workers with jobs that employers cannot fill with American workers. The private agencies would also perform health screenings, fingerprint the guest workers and provide that information for federal background checks.
Successful applicants for the Good Neighbor SAFE Visa could enter America legally provided they meet the visa requirements.
We call it a "Good Neighbor" SAFE Visa because the program would be limited to countries that currently enjoy a positive trade relationship with the United States in our hemisphere. Only residents of NAFTA and CAFTA-DR countries will be eligible to participate in this program. Good Neighbor SAFE Visas will be issued for two years, with the option to renew them in two-year increments for up to 12 years.
Good Neighbor SAFE Visa participants are not eligible for welfare, Social Security or Medicare. All paycheck deductions will be made as for American citizens. Workers' Medicare contributions will go into a fund to compensate hospitals for emergency medical expenses incurred while treating foreign workers. Worker Social Security deductions will be returned when a participant exits the program and returns to his or her home country. Employer Social Security contributions will remain in our country's system.
At the end of the visa period, visa holders who have been gainfully employed with no violations may return to their country of origin or apply for a new X-Change Visa with an employer sponsor and continue working in the United States under the same conditions with no further renewals required. There is no automatic path to citizenship in the Hutchison-Pence plan. After five more years, the X-Change Visa holder would have the option of continuing to hold an X-Change Visa, returning home or applying for permanent adjustment of status.
Third: Verification and enforcement
For the system to be effective, it is necessary to implement a nationwide electronic employment verification system through which employers confirm the legality of each employee. Those who continue to hire unverifiable employees will be subject to stiff fines.
Two years after the date of enactment, employers will be required to verify the eligibility of all new employees, including temporary workers. After six years, verification will apply to all employees. While this may be unsettling to some, and there may be better ways to do it, we will never have complete knowledge of everyone who is in our country and their legal status without some capability for verification.
Good Neighbor SAFE Visas will provide businesses seeking to hire foreign workers with a secure method of confirming their legal status. If a temporary worker is fired, convicted of a crime or just disappears, the card will be canceled, preventing someone else from hiring the worker.
We have a historic opportunity to repair our immigration system. Our proposal is meant to be one set of ideas; there are many others. But there can be no disagreement on this: Congress owes it to the American people to solve this crisis. We are attempting to protect our national security while providing benefits to our country for generations to come. We urge our colleagues in Congress to come back to the table and produce a workable system. The future of our country depends on it.
It's just that to a lot of the open-borders proponents, eg Kudlow, support for mass illegal immigration is a core conservative value, so Tancredo's not a "real" conservative.
So you support a plan that excludes from participation any human from outside the Americas?
People who support Pence-Hutchinson support the exclusion of immigrants from outside of the Americas.
Pence found out that any plan that favors illegals is the third rail.
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