IDF finds bodies of missing sailors aboard damaged Navy ship

Haaretz.com ^ | JUly 16, 2006 | Amos Harel

[Screaming_Gerbil]

One would think they would have been prepared for just this contigency with the most sophisticated ship they have that was designed precisely to defend against that type of threat.

It just does not add up to me.

My guess is that they were just not expecting that type of attack coming at them from the enemy.

A suicide speedboat or perhaps a single engine plane packed with explosives, were probably what they were looking for.

They proably thought that turning the defensive systems on to protect against a sophisticated missle was a greater risk to engaging friendly forces by accident than the possibility of stopping an enemy attack.

Guess it's a lesson learned...

[cva66snipe]

One other thing. No pictures so far means Israel must have got that ship out of port and out of camera sight very fast all things considered. I'm real surprised nothing showed up yet. But if taken out in cover of darkness that would explain a lot. Also another problem is if that chopper was on the pad or not. If so that creates a huge problem especially if it caught fire and had magnesium components. Even without the magnesium it would make a much a mess as the missile hit did. The worst fire you can have on a ship is Class D.

[wyattearp]

...see post 50 for some good analysis...

Just read it. Thanks, snipe (I was a twidget on a DDG). I did get into trouble occasionslly, and once wound up in the ram room, mopping up grease. The stearing gear is HUGE steel, and is not easily damaged. This can got slammed, and they are fortunate not to have lost the ship. Unfortunately, it appears as if they lost everybody in after stearing.

[Jeff Head]

I have wondered about the helo since the start of this, whether it was on deck or in its hangar and caught up in thie explosion.

At this point, my guess is that it was not, or things would have been worse...unless of course the missile was a near miss and ballistic shrapnel and pieces of the missile impacted the helo and it exploded, causing the damge to the ship.

Guess we will have to wait and see.

[Doohickey]

I'm thinking they set whatever their equivalent to condition Zebra is when the casualty got called away.

Bilge alarms, trim or list changes and deadlights would be the only ways they would have to determine if the compartments were flooded so it would have taken time to figure out if the compartment was safe to re-enter.

Shaft seals depend on seawater for lubrication; pumps secured by power loss or electrical bus shifts would have to be restarted locally, which of course is dependent on being able to re-enter the affected compartments.

[cva66snipe]

Just read it. Thanks, snipe (I was a twidget on a DDG). I did get into trouble occasionslly, and once wound up in the ram room, mopping up grease. The stearing gear is HUGE steel, and is not easily damaged. This can got slammed, and they are fortunate not to have lost the ship. Unfortunately, it appears as if they lost everybody in after stearing.

That's what it sounds like. Steering usually required at least two watches {Operators} but that was on a carrier though. That's why a lot of what I'm saying is guessing. I'm not that familiar with a cans layout. One dead could have been a rover watch unfortunate enough to be checking the stern tubes etc. Overall they obviously had some great Damage Control training though that much to their credit.

[Jeff Head]

Overall they obviously had some great Damage Control training...that much to their credit

Amen to that! Youi know some brave personnel were literally going into hell to control this and save that ship.

[wyattearp]

Steering usually required at least two watches {Operators} but that was on a carrier though.

IIRC, we also had two guys in after steering. One bosun on deck on the fantail on stern watch would make three. If they were conducting helo ops, there would have been another guy on the fantail communicating with CIC.

This can was less than half the size of the Adams-class can I was on. Ditto on their Damage Control. Big time Bravo Zulu.

On the other hand, the CICWO should be seriously investigated, IMHO.

[cva66snipe]

I'm thinking they set whatever their equivalent to condition Zebra is when the casualty got called away. Bilge alarms, trim or list changes and deadlights would be the only ways they would have to determine if the compartments were flooded so it would have taken time to figure out if the compartment was safe to re-enter. Shaft seals depend on seawater for lubrication; pumps secured by power loss or electrical bus shifts would have to be restarted locally, which of course is dependent on being able to re-enter the affected compartments.

Under those conditions modified Zebra should have been already in place. Just the most essential hatches left open without dogging. Yea even back aft there's a bunch of stuff can go wrong including the firemain rupturing which could in seconds pour in more water then the above mentioned. On a ship that small the gears may have been operational via a hand pump if they could get into the space. My guess is they towed it ASAP or it was underway on a reduced capacity to a shipyard. The Enterprise fire I think it was showed it underway and smoke boiling from the aft section. We need a Hydraulics systems Snipe in here and he could clarify a lot. I was A-gang but I was AC&R. But I was also a fire fighter too in the yard periods {1 on 1} so I know DC protocols :>}

[cva66snipe]

Thanks for the info I was guessing at it based on what we had.

[cva66snipe]

Updated info thread.

[dennisw]

Combat history

On July 14, 2006, while enforcing a blockade off Beirut the INS Hanit was attacked by Hezbollah, apparently using a C-802 missile. The ship suffered damage near the helicopter landing pad (or, according to the press conference, near the bridge) and was on fire for several hours and temporarily lost its ability to steer. Four sailors were killed, and the ship returned to Ashdod for repairs.

According the the Israeli Navy, the ship's sophisticated automatic missile defense system was intentionally disabled. This was done for two reasons, one, there were many Israeli Air Force aircraft conducting operations in the vicinity of the ship and it was feared that the system may accidently be triggered by a friendly aircraft, potentially shooting it down. Second, there was no intelligence pointing to the fact that such a sophisticated missile, roughly equivalent to the American Harpoon, was deployed in Lebanon by Hezbollah.

Sa'ar 5-class missile boat

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INS Eilat - Sa'ar 5 class missile boat

Sa'ar 5 (Hebrew: סער 5) is a class of Israeli Navy missile boat, designed based on lessons learnt from the Sa'ar 4.5 class ships. Three Sa'ar 5 ships were built by Northrop Grumman Ship Systems (formerly Litton-Ingalls Shipbuilding Corporation of Pascagoula, Mississippi) for the Israeli Navy, based on Israeli designs.

The first of class, INS Eilat, was launched in February 1993, followed by INS Lahav in August 1993 and INS Hanit in March 1994.

Contents

[]

• 1 Combat history
• 2 Technical data
• 3 Defensive systems
  • 3.1 Detection Systems
  • 3.2 Decoys
  • 3.3 Electronic Warfare measures
  • 3.4 C&C Systems
  • 3.5 Helicopter
• 4 See also
• 5 External links

[tarheelswamprat]

...tough for me to believe...but apparently based on their intelligence that is how they ran the operation. Makes no sense to me to have a sophisticated anti-air corvette on station in combat with its anti-air systems not operating.

Thank to all for the info and analysis. I think we should also remind ourselves of the possible involvement of political factors in causing this deadly lapse of military readiness.

Israel's military suffers from the same handicap as the American military - politicians all too frequently set the ROE. Those politicians are usually more concerned with their own diplomatic maneuverings than with the lives of their soldiers, and this type of vacillation has frequently cost both the US and the Israelis unnecessarily in lives lost.

I don't know if this was a factor in this case; it may simply have been an error by the ship's captain. However, I don't think we should rule out the possibility of political constraints having played a role.

Israel politically is just as divided and at war with itself as is America, and despite the undeniable military might both possess, when it comes to actually having to exercise that might, both nations resemble the scene from the Steve Martin movie "The Man With Two Brains" where his body lurches and twitches spastically from the attempts of the two competing brains for control. Israel's Leftists have put their nation in mortal danger just as our own Leftists have done here in America. In both cases they are determined to have control even if it means the destruction of the body.

[Always A Marine]

Thank you for yet another great ping, Jeff. Conversations like this are happening in navies all over the world, and what we learn from this incident will prove valuable in later engagements. There are many interesting perspectives on this board that are well worth hearing.

That said, some Freepers (especially in earlier threads on this topic) are too quick to equate any success by one side with failure by the other. This is especially true when knowledge of a specific event is still very limited. I would remind those friends that war is a killing game, and even the victor may at times suffer staggering losses. The victor will not shoot his wounded warriors, but will learn and adjust and send them back to kill more of the enemy.

We ourselves haven't engaged in a naval shooting war in some time, and we should be very cognizant of that fact as we train to fight the next one. With our increased focus on littoral warfare -- and the looming spectre of naval actions in the Arabian Sea, the Yellow Sea and the Sea of Japan -- what we learn from the INS Spear incident may save American ships and lives in the very near future.

Again, great conversation...

[cva66snipe]

Politics has always been a deadly game mixed with defense postures. Britan sank the pride of the German Navy all because someone wanted Bismark back in home port for repairs rather than the nearest yard. Damaged and operating at a greatly reduced capacity it got caught in transit and was unable to get away that time :>}

Politics and some right out arrogance in the Pentagon cost us a ship in Yemen and part of it's crew. On that one many protocols were violated including 2 days out from fleet alone. But despite the blundering and bad political judgments or their civilian leaders, soldiers and sailors still do very well despite them. As bad as this one seems to be that crew would have had to have been on top of things to save the ship. They likely under their breath were saying we told you so :>{

[Robert A Cook PE]

Tanks.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Hmmmn. A soldier

Hmmmn. Soldiers injured in a missile attack on a Israeli helo-equipped ship at rest in the close-to-shore waters off of an enemy coast?

Gee, I wonder why soldiers would be aboard a helo-equipped naval missile frigate off Lebanon?

[patton]

Israel, as I understand it, does not distinguish between "soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guard..."

They are all soldiers.

[Robert A Cook PE]

I doubt the helo was aboard. A blast in the hanger would have affected it (burned, blown shrapnel from theblast, subsequent fires...) It's too little time to launch the helo from detect to impact, if the helo were already aboard.

That fact that soldiers were injured indicates the ship was supporting Israeli army ops in-country. if so, the helo would have had its IFF off (since you can track and shoot an IFF signal) and THAT would be the reason that the ship anti-air systems HAD to be off.

If they were "on" automatic, then the helo wold become a target as it returned to get more soldiers (the ones hurt/killed.) aboard the ship.

[betty boop]

I think we should also remind ourselves of the possible involvement of political factors in causing this deadly lapse of military readiness.

Which is why we have to face the enemy with one hand tied behind our back. And assuredly, the enemy counts on that, and is taking this fact into consideration in the development of its own hideous plans.

Sooner or later, the West is going to have to "come out slugging" with both hands and everything we can bring to bear to decimate/eradicate this persistent evil. Sooner is probably better (i.e., in terms of the most efficient and in the last analysis, most sparing actions WRT to conservation of American and Israeli blood and treasure, not to mention that of the hapless people of Lebanon) than later.

Why is it that people refuse to learn anything from history? We've seen this all before.... The Neville Chamberlains of our world seem to be holding all the cards at the moment. That will mean the price exacted in the end, will be horrifically more terrible than it needed to be, if appropriate, measure-for-measure actions were effectively taken NOW.

Well, FWIW. Thank you ever so much for writing, tarheelswamprat. Seems to me your analysis is right on the money.