A Critical Appraisal (of public schools over the years)

JohnTaylorGatto.com ^ | John Taylor Gatto

[GSlob]

Which part of "and abominably fails at it" have you missed?

[GSlob]

Well, in arithmetics section, when talking about "calculating interest" [or discount] they omitted to mention the method of compounding [probably straigth linear in the course of the year, but still open to question]; when figuring capacity of a wagon [how much it could hold], they did not specify whether it was open top with a possibility of a pyramidal-like topping, and if yes, then what would be the angle to which one could pile the pyramid; in cost of boards per metre question they omitted - did they mean a metre of length, or one of surface [square metre]? Thus that section was formulated rather sloppily. Having English as my second language, I will pass the language section over in silence.

[GSlob]

straigth=straight

[GSlob]

Besides Murray and Herrnstein's "Bell Curve" you need to read "the g factor" by Arthur Jensen. By a pretty simple 15-20 minute test on a child [or an adult] one could find that person's IQ at a minimal cost. Thus one DOES NOT NEED school [or any prior] records, what one needs is the legal permission to test. And the IQ follows a person in life much more tenaciously than any Dangan you could design or imagine - in theory, one could buy [or manufacture] forged Dangan documents, but to buy a better intellect is much more problematic, for it is a biometric parameter.
As for "cognitive stratification" [Murray and Herrnstein's term - what you call "castes"] - it is a fact of life, direct corollary of separation of labor. Instead of being objected to, it needs to be embraced, put to use, and promoted wherever possible.

[metmom]

I'm sure much of that was understood. While it appears sloppy to us because we were taught differently, it was likely to be done as the examples in class were done so the exam didn't need to specify.

[metmom]

BTW, I expect they has memorized all the conversion factors and they had no calculators. Rods and bushels are out of my realm of experience.

Are you familar with the common criticism implying that our grandparents were uneducated because *they only had an eighth grade education*? It's often used in a disaraging way implying that they didn't really have a clue about what was going on because all they got to was eigth grade, making them barely literate. I mean, if they are comparing it to an eighth grade education of TODAY, yes, it would be an insult. In those days, they really educated kids and what they knew by 8th, I doubt most twelfth graders today could even touch.

Interesting thing is, the Mennonites still teach much along those lines. I've seen and used some of their curriculum and it is way more advanced than what you get out of the public high schools.

[GSlob]

They probably had slide rulers and/or logarithm tables. That's how I was taught in the hoary and remote antiquity.

[after dark]

No one is as blind as someone who sees something that is not there. There is no correlation between caste systems and prosperity. Caste systems lead to corruption. The lower classes will always bring down the upper crust through vice.This country needs to part ways with its caste heavy education system.Before we had the present public school system , we had community schools. Children who were exceptionally smart finished school quicker and went to college. The bell curve only proved that people with a certain level of intelligence would become wealthy however the bell curve book failed to account for how corruption destroys opportunities.A society which places a heavy emphasis on caste is by nature corrupt and poor.Which is why so many high IQ people are desperately fighting to get into this country. If caste systems were peachy most of those people would stay in the third world. This country is a success because everyone (not just those people with 145+ IQ's) believes they will be successful.

[GSlob]

"No one is as blind as someone who sees something that is not there."
Physician, heal thyself [or look in the mirror]. The "Bell Curve" [were you to read and understand it] ought to contain an eye-opener for you - a statistical simulation of otherwise identical American societies, but one with average IQ shifted to 103, and another to 97. The former had much less of any social problems you could care to mention - from crime to illegitimacy to school dropout rates to welfare - i.e. was more prosperous. The latter was correspondingly worse off. Now, do not overinterpret it as the eugenics advocacy.

[JamesP81]

BS I call it. More bright kids fall thru the cracks now - they're doped up on Ritalin or anti-depressants and their creativity destroyed.

You don't even want to know the stories I could tell you from my own personal experience.

[JamesP81]

Very true. But they have to be doped up, because school is so boring, there's no other way they can sit still, be quiet, and pay attention at the same time.

I read a book by John Eldredge called 'Wild at Heart' that dealt some with this. It's a Christian book about finding the male soul and how the culture has wussified men, but he deals with this issue in one of the chapters. Very interesting read.

[cinives]

Previously many bright people "fell through the cracks", now only [relatively] few. Previously the society had [relatively] few spots for the brights [i.e. there was a large surfeit of them], now - many more.

Obviously I was comenting on this statement. Regardless whether you think that public schools are failing(as do I also), the statement I reference here, picked up from your post, is just wrong. Tragically wrong.

[cinives]

Actually, I'd be curious. My kid was almost caught up in that trap - it's the reason we STARTED homeschooling but not the reason we CONTINUE to homeschool.

One of my favorite commentators on the subject is Linda Schrock Taylor.

[GSlob]

See "Bell Curve". In 1900 the schools used to pick maybe 15% of the brights, now - maybe 80-85% [if half of them go through the public schools, then 15-20% overall failure to pick rate becomes 30-40% in public schools, ascribing all the failures there]. And that would mean that even the public schools do manage to pick 60-70% of the brights despite ritalin. 60-70% is an abominable failure - what is needed is 95%, and 99% would be still better.

[litehaus]

As for "cognitive stratification" [Murray and Herrnstein's term - what you call "castes"] - it is a fact of life, direct corollary of separation of labor. Instead of being objected to, it needs to be embraced, put to use, and promoted wherever possible.---

NO,NO! Diversity,equal opportunity...;^)

[cinives]

Whether they "pick" them or not (I guess I'd better read The Bell Curve !), they not only do very little for them, they drug them and indoctrinate them. And I'm suspicious about the increase. Only 1% of special education funds are devoted to the gifted, a lesser percentage than in years past. So - more kids splitting a smaller percentage means zip.

Let me tell you one little story. My kid was tested because she was "disorganized" in her advanced reading class. Most professionals should recognize this as one indicator of high intelligence, but they choose to call it a LD. The IQ tests indicated my (then) 9yo was reading, comprehending, and had spatial abilities of a grade 16 level. So what did they want to do ? Pull her out of advanced reading, put her in special ed, give her Ritalin, and 30 minutes a day of "remedial" work. Remedial in what, I asked. They didn't have a specific curriculum in mind, but they were adamant that she could not stay in her advanced reading class. I fought that battle and "won" for 2 years - they (teachers, administrators and some kids) made her life miserable in class. I decided I needed to homeschool, and she's thrived ever since.

So - my point is, they're identifying the bright kids, and attempting to level them down.

[mcvey]

From what I have seen, it takes a large number of skills and attitudes, most of them learnable, to succeed at most things. My suspicion is that parents who teach their children that childhood is preparation for adulthood, and demand that they learn their lessons in adulthood studies, are the ones whose children succeed.

Those who have not become adults themselves or who do not require their children to acquire skills such as diligence, the ability to delay gratification, the pleasure of earned self-esteem, the drive to think clearly without emotionalizing and personalizing each issue, will tend to have children who will fail to live up to their intellectual potential in the world.

McVey

[JamesP81]

Your reply should be in your FReepmail.

[after dark]

I don't think you ever attended one our public schools so you have a poor understanding of why our schools are despised. To much weight has been given the IQ test. The IQ test was invented by Europeans( Benet was french) ,but the Europeans do not use the IQ test. I think the IQ test should not be used in this country any more than the French or the Swiss use the test.The ranking of children in groups based on how valuable they are perceived by educational psychologists is sinister and immoral. It is also a system which is fraught with corruption. Parents can and have helped their children cheat. Administrators have overlooked the high test scores of children who came from low status families in favor of kids who came from higher status families. The IQ test is only as good as the man or woman who gives it ,so it is not to be trusted.
As a side note, you can educate your talented children any way you want(provided their parents agree with you). If you want to set up a special school with your own money more power to you ,but you have no God given right to use my money to force serfdom on the children you do not value.
If you had the faith in the IQ ranking system that you claim you have ,you would believe that ranking for better or worse can not help or hinder the super intelligent. I think you put much more value on nurture than you realize.