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Too Bad Hippocrates Wasn't an Engineer
NY Times ^
| June 11, 2006
| JOHN SCHWARTZ
Posted on 06/11/2006 9:53:40 PM PDT by neverdem
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James L. Long Associates
Shuttle, 1979 The space shuttle Columbia was scheduled for its first mission in 1979. But when protective tiles fell off as it was being shipped to the launching site, it was back to the drawing board.
Vincent Laforet/The New York Times
Levee, 2005 The floodwall at the 17th Street Canal was one part of the New Orleans system that failed, sending water gushing through the levee.
Jerome Delay/Associated Press
Airport, 2004 Investigators pointed to four basic flaws in the design and construction of the passenger terminal at Charles de Gaulle airport north of Paris that collapsed, killing four people.
United States Bureau of Reclamation, via Associated Press
Dam, 1976 The Teton Dam, built on a geologically suspect site, burst not long after it was completed.
1
posted on
06/11/2006 9:53:43 PM PDT
by
neverdem
To: neverdem
Is it possible that the engineering mistake was to choose to build a city below sea level?
Nawww,,,,,, we can do that!
2
posted on
06/11/2006 9:57:24 PM PDT
by
RonHolzwarth
("History repeats itself - first as tragedy, then as farce" - Karl Marx)
To: neverdem
I've heard that at one time parachutists in the service were dying because of improperly packed chutes. So they implimented a policy of making the parachute packers jump using one of the chutes they packed, picked at ramdom. It cut way down on chutes that failed to properly deploy.
I wonder what kind of engineering we would get if the lives of the engineers depended on the consequences of their poor design?
3
posted on
06/11/2006 9:59:00 PM PDT
by
metmom
(Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
To: neverdem
Too bad journalists and editors aren't held to the same standard engineers are. A good 99% would be in jail by now.
4
posted on
06/11/2006 10:01:10 PM PDT
by
randog
(What the...?!)
To: metmom
I wonder what kind of engineering we would get if the lives of the engineers depended on the consequences of their poor design? So you don't think that engineers drive cars, live in buildings, lived in New Orleans, fly on airplanes, ride on trains? They share the same risk of "poor designs" everyone else face.
5
posted on
06/11/2006 10:02:32 PM PDT
by
Texasforever
(I have neither been there nor done that.)
To: metmom
I wonder what kind of engineering we would get if the lives of the engineers depended on the consequences of their poor design? I know engineers that have gone to jail for malfeasance.
6
posted on
06/11/2006 10:03:38 PM PDT
by
randog
(What the...?!)
To: neverdem
7
posted on
06/11/2006 10:08:31 PM PDT
by
indthkr
To: neverdem
More people died from the
North Sea flood of 1953 in the Netherlands than died in Louisiana during Hurricane Katrina. Due to levee breaks, 9% of the Netherlands' farmland was inundated by sea water. That's the worst levee-breach caused flooding in modern history in terms of loss of life.
Even more people died in the
Johnstown Flood of 1889, which was caused by a dam collapse after years of neglect.
Bad engineering and neglect has happened over the course of human history.
To: randog
Well said. A bit of engineer bashing going on here. What isn't said is that in the above mentioned examples it was likely a pointy headed manager that overrode the engineer's more conservative approach.
How many reporters give half a seconds worth of thought into the implications of what they write? Engineers by nature consider the downside of their design failing - before they commit it to being built. Then they test and retest before subjecting the public to their product. Then some damn fool finds a way to break it and gets a lawyer to sue.
There was a time when engineers were heralded as makers of the bright future. Now whiny journalists complain and lawyers destroy careers. And we wonder why few students want to study engineering. :(
9
posted on
06/11/2006 10:13:11 PM PDT
by
anymouse
To: metmom
For railroad bridges it used to be that the engineer would stand under it when there was the first [test] train driven across the bridge.
10
posted on
06/11/2006 10:18:33 PM PDT
by
GSlob
To: neverdem
Add to the list, the Kansas City Hyatt Hotel. There were "skywalks" that collapsed during a "tea dance." 46 people were killed in 1981.
Mark
11
posted on
06/11/2006 10:19:26 PM PDT
by
MarkL
(When Kaylee says "No power in the `verse can stop me," it's cute. When River says it, it's scary!)
To: neverdem
THANK YOU for linking to the
Printer Friendly version of the article.
Those of us trapped in 56K dialup HELL really appreciate it!
12
posted on
06/11/2006 10:20:48 PM PDT
by
upchuck
(Wikipedia.com - the most unbelievable web site in the world.)
To: Texasforever; potlatch
Live in a swamp
Die in a swamp
--
My liberal NYC enviro sister sez New Orleans will be under water within a certain number of years anyway
Why rebuild on below seal level land that sinks more as you add more weight above it and is surrounded by water?
Money wasted on bridge studies, water fountains, casinos, bribes -
If they had wanted to hold back the waters they would have copied the Dutch
But instead the New Orleans politicians and scammers went for the quick and dirty buck instead -
13
posted on
06/11/2006 10:21:50 PM PDT
by
devolve
(fx AMERICANS_KILLED_IN_2003_BY_ILLEGALS FBI-DOJ_REPORT_4380+4745=9125 NO__NUEVO__TEJAS!)
To: devolve
14
posted on
06/11/2006 10:25:46 PM PDT
by
potlatch
(Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
To: randog
the NY Times had a hand in covering up the deaths of millions of people during Stalin's reign of terror. Since then, the NY Times has had a hand in bringing Castro to power, as well as in helping the North Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge come to power. I wonder what the penalty should be for a newspaper that repeatedly does things like that?
To: RonHolzwarth
Is it possible that the engineering mistake was to choose to build a city below sea level? No. That was a political mistake. The engineering mistake was in determining the building and maintenance requirements (the first and fourth steps in most standard engineering projects).
When I was in the Navy operating nuclear reactors we had to periodically test everything to make sure that our equipment operated up to specifications. You never build something and expect it to last forever. In some cases it was difficult to test something by conventional means so alternate tests were performed (such as using radiography to test welds). But nothing was ignored.
Contrast this with the levees in New Orleans. How did they know (and certify) each year that the levees would operate to specifications? They didn't in reality. They just signed paperwork to make it look like they were. The most significant flaw was the settling of the levees and the sinking of the city so that the levees were overtopped. By measuring the height of the levees they could have determined if they needed to be repaired.
The biggest issue in this disaster is that the Army Corps of Engineers gave custody of the levees to the corrupt New Orleans Levee Districts assuming that since levee failure would hurt them the most, they would do a good job of making sure the levees were in specification. What a mistake!
Additional testing is more expensive. Perhaps New Orleans and the federal government wouldn't have bought the levees if they realized that. But that was a political issue. As far as I can tell, the initial design engineers did their jobs correctly. The maintenance engineers and politicians fouled this hole situation up.
16
posted on
06/11/2006 10:30:22 PM PDT
by
burzum
(Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.--Adm. Rickover)
To: metmom
We'd walk everywhere we go - for starters.
17
posted on
06/11/2006 10:30:38 PM PDT
by
DB
(©)
To: burzum
The levee wasn't designed to take a cat 5 hurricane straight on.
18
posted on
06/11/2006 10:34:13 PM PDT
by
DB
(©)
To: upchuck
THANK YOU for linking to the Printer Friendly version of the article. Those of us trapped in 56K dialup HELL really appreciate it!
What about the pics in comment# 1? Do they cause any grief?
19
posted on
06/11/2006 10:39:35 PM PDT
by
neverdem
(May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
To: DB
The levee wasn't designed to take a cat 5 hurricane straight on. I concur. The politicians didn't want to build one that big. But that isn't the primary issue with the New Orleans levee failure. The levees failed because the water level was over specification. That is problem #1. Problem #2 is that some of the levees had sunk below design specification.
As someone who had to evaluate operational failures I can't really say much about problem #1 other than to say you get what you pay for. On problem #2, which made this casuality worse, I would rip out the hearts of the maintenance engineers and politicians.
20
posted on
06/11/2006 10:40:02 PM PDT
by
burzum
(Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.--Adm. Rickover)
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