Looking at tax alternatives

The Edmund Sun ^ | April 20, 2006 | Bob O’Bar

[Eaglewatcher]

Bob has a great grasp of the situation!

[Man50D]

Excellent Post! Fair Tax ping!

[coloradan]

Looking at tax alternatives

Like, reducing spending? Limited government? Government agents being volunteers (as in public service)?

[Bigun]

Bob does indeed have a FIRM grasp of the situation.

The communist inspired income tax, in ANY form, is unworthy of a nation which calls itself free. We CANNOT be free for so long as we have an income tax as the very nature of the beast precludes freedom!

"-- The socialistic and anti-social character of the income tax is inherent.

Embedded in the philosophy of the law is the destructive principle, so that once it is in effect the economic and political consequences are inevitable. The principle of the income tax is the denial of private property.

There is nothing in the Sixteenth Amendment, there is nothing in the principle of the income tax, which puts a limit on the amount the State may demand, and hence the implication is clear that the individual's absolute right of private property is denied.

The theory of republican government, that its powers are derived from the will of the people, is no safeguard against this denial of private property.

Assuming that the Sixteenth Amendment at the time of its enactment did express the will of the people, every one of them, the substance and effect of income taxation was to destroy the will of any subsequent generation for modification or revocation.

It is unlike any other law. For the denial of the right of private property is in essence the denial of the right of the individual to himself. He is no longer a free person if he is not free to keep and enjoy the products of his labors. --"

Excerted from From Solomon’s Yoke to the Income Tax by Frank Chodorov

[Tzimisce]

They are not going to change the tax code - not ever.

That is how they lord over the rest of us. It's where the true power lies in Congress.

The chance of them reforming the tax code are about as good as them actually doing something about illegal immigration.

[Conservative Goddess]

And in retrospect, the Founders appear to have been almost clairvoyant; certainly prescient:

From Federalist No. 62:

"...It may be affirmed, on the best grounds, that no small share of the present embarrassments of America is to be charged on the blunders of our governments; and that these have proceeded from the heads rather than the hearts of most of the authors of them. What indeed are all the repealing, explaining, and amending laws, which fill and disgrace our voluminous codes, but so many monuments of deficient wisdom; so many impeachments exhibited by each succeeding against each preceding session; so many admonitions to the people, ...?

....

The internal effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous. It poisons the blessing of liberty itself. It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?

Another effect of public instability is the unreasonable advantage it gives to the sagacious, the enterprising, and the moneyed few over the industrious and uniformed mass of the people. Every new regulation concerning commerce or revenue, or in any way affecting the value of the different species of property, presents a new harvest to those who watch the change, and can trace its consequences; a harvest, reared not by themselves, but by the toils and cares of the great body of their fellow-citizens. This is a state of things in which it may be said with some truth that laws are made for the FEW, not for the MANY.

In another point of view, great injury results from an unstable government. The want of confidence in the public councils damps every useful undertaking, the success and profit of which may depend on a continuance of existing arrangements. What prudent merchant will hazard his fortunes in any new branch of commerce when he knows not but that his plans may be rendered unlawful before they can be executed? What farmer or manufacturer will lay himself out for the encouragement given to any particular cultivation or establishment, when he can have no assurance that his preparatory labors and advances will not render him a victim to an inconstant government? In a word, no great improvement or laudable enterprise can go forward which requires the auspices of a steady system of national policy.

But the most deplorable effect of all is that diminution of attachment and reverence which steals into the hearts of the people, towards a political system which betrays so many marks of infirmity, and disappoints so many of their flattering hopes. No government, any more than an individual, will long be respected without being truly respectable; nor be truly respectable, without possessing a certain portion of order and stability."

Let's end this little dalliance with Socialism and return to the vision of the Founders. Let's enact the FairTax!

[Bigun]

Hear Here!!

The sooner we do as you suggest; "end this little dalliance with Socialism and return to the vision of the Founders" the sooner we will be a free people again!

[Conservative Goddess]

I'm sorry to say that you are correct in your assessment. I believe we need to revolt...peacefully at first.......by refusing to play along....refusing to file and remit our taxes. That will require careful preparation however, so that your property is not confiscated in satisfaction. And ultimately, they'll confiscate anything they can find to make an example out of us, even if you've taken pains to protect it.

And many of us are afraid and have much to lose....but what is freedom worth? Do we acquiesce and accept the chains of slavery?? Do we sentence our children and grandchildren to the same slavery? At what point do we stand up and say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH? IMHO, we're quickly approaching the breaking point.

This tax season was the worst I've endured in 20 years. The number of amended 1099's was staggering...necessitating amendment of tax returns that had already been filed. The law is so complex that even the brokerage houses can't comply in a timely and accurate fashion. The system is starting to implode. We need to help it along. And IMHO, GWB did just that by signing an additional 20,000+ pages of tax legislation into law.

It's time to reassert our 4th Amendment rights: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Our banks, brokerages houses, Houses of Worship, employers, business partners, routinely divulge the intimate details of our financial lives to the government....in direct violation of the above. We are not secure in our "...houses, papers and effects..." because they are effectively searched, without a warrant, without probable cause, to enforce the income tax.

The income tax is a pox on this country. Time to end it...peacefully if possible.

[robertpaulsen]

"Your time is worth something even if you use ..."

Yeah, right. I'm really getting tired of these same old arguments -- if your time is worth $50/hour and it took you six hours to do your taxes, it's costing you ....

If the average Joe didn't have to fill out tax forms every April 14th, he'd be plopped down on the couch watching Wheel of Fortune.

[Bigun]

They are not going to change the tax code - not ever.

"They" work for YOU my friend! They are YOUR employees and mine. If we don't properly supervise them we richly deserve what we get!

[robertpaulsen]

"Dramatically reduce the costs of goods and services by 20 to 30 percent. Allows you to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, pension and Social Security payments."

One or the other, not both. If the employer gives you your whole paycheck rather than sending a portion of it to the IRS, his "cost" of business remains the same.

He may be able to reduce prices somewhat due to decreased compliance costs, but even that is overrated.

"Bob has a great grasp of the situation!"

This guy grasps nothing, other than the ability to bull$hit. He'd have us believe that costs decrease 20-30%, our paycheck increases 20-30%, AND we all get a monthly stipend from the government.

And I got a bridge in Brooklyn.

[pigdog]

Yep, all those would help. They'd be helped along in an acceleraed fashion by enacting the FairTax.

Conservative Goddess had it right -

"The income tax is a pox on this country. Time to end it...peacefully if possible. "

[pigdog]

Yeah ... sort of like giving wimmen' the right to vote, eh?

[pigdog]

But that's Joe's choice ... which he doesn't have now as a tax option.

Then again, he might write the rest of "The Unfiniswhed Symphony" - or start the newest Microsoft.

[pigdog]

Keep your bridge, robert. No buyers here.

You'll also get all your wages under the FairTax (not counting other than present income/payroll tax withholdings) AND prices will decline. the only real question is the amount of the decrease. Some think 20%, some think more, some think less - but they will decline and by enough to notice.

Not only do compliance costs enter in, but the employer's portion of payroll taxes as well. Some part of those (if not all) will no doubt go toward reduced prices.

The key thing is that the FairTax will give most people increased disposable personal income and will greatly assist the US economy PLUS if offers much more individual freedom for all taxpayers than at present.

[robertpaulsen]

"but the employer's portion of payroll taxes as well. Some part of those (if not all) will no doubt go toward reduced prices."

As I said in my post, pigdog, one or the other, not both.

According to the article, I get to keep "100 percent of your paycheck, pension and Social Security payments". Now, here you are, telling me that the employer probably won't do that.

You guys and your lies. No wonder no one supports this scam -- we can never get the straight story.

[robertpaulsen]

"Then again, he might write the rest of "The Unfiniswhed Symphony" - or start the newest Microsoft"

Or work a second job to pay for the increased costs of imports.

According to you, domestic employers will use retained payroll taxes to reduce their prices. Foreign manufactureres obviosly can't do that, and their prices rise. Most of what we consume is imported.

Imagine everthing rising like oil is rising. That'll be fun, huh?

[pigdog]

Well, robert, the ER portion of payroll taxes is not presently in your paycheck so what I said was exactly true. There IS no lie and you Squirrels making continual claims of such are childish. My post #15 is correct as written.

Read what I said more closely - some part of the ER portion may be used to reduce prices as well as the business income taxes no longer paid and the compliance costs involved.

Those of you who can't understand that are in for a shock.

[pigdog]

You miss the point that many, many imported things will not be taxed since they are purchased by businesses incorporating them as part of something for resale. As such the cost represented by the particular thing will be taxed but not the thing itself on a standalone basis.

On imported things that are directly hit with the FairTax, their suppliers will need to find ways to revamp the item and/or reduce their costs if they wish to remain competitive with other competitors that will spring up due to this price differential.

Everyone won't just sit there paying higher and higher prices and to believe so shows your lack of grasping of the competitive process of the market.

[Bigun]

Imagine everthing rising like oil is rising.

Imagine the price of a gallon of gasoline without the hundreds of billions of $ paid by oil companies in corporate income taxes and their associated costs included you dunce!