Tab for Indiana Toll Road not cheap

Post-Tribune ^ | Jan. 25, 2006 | Steve Walsh

[nascarnation]

We had 16 years of Evan Bayh/Frank O'Bannon/Joe Kernan
They raised the income tax
They got the lottery instituted
They got a bunch of riverboat casinos
Property taxes skyrocketed
AND WITH ALL THIS THEY SPENT EVERY PENNY AND MORE

[Publius Valerius]

We get almost $4 billion, right now, and you don't see how it benefits the motorists?

Well, hmm...we could keep things they way they are, in which we have a construction budget shortfall and highways that are falling apart, or we could take $4 billion and build a bunch of roads and fix the highways.

Yeah, I can't figure out why anyone would want to take that deal.

[Miss Marple]

Ah yes, Daylight Savings Time. The end of civilization as we know it.

DST is ANNOYING to those of us who liked the old way. I am 57, so I remember when we DID have DST, before it was abolished. At one time we were also in the Central Time Zone, I believe. You know what? I will live through this change as well, and so will you. It is important to a lot of transportation industries that we be on an understandable time.

The Irsays are not getting a hand-out. Part of the deal for the new stadium involves the increase in the size of the Convention Center.

Indianapolis has already lost conventions because we can't accomodate larger groups, even though people like Indianapolis because of the central location of all of its attractions and hotels. Lost conventions mean lost business and lost tax revenue. The loss of the Colts would have been a disaster to the business community in central Indiana.

As far as "sin taxes", well, as long as most people DON'T smoke, I am afraid that is going to be the way that the legislatures in all states raise their money. I have chosen to quit smoking, which is MY choice (made before the tax increase was announced). A case can be made that we lose some businesses because of the cost of medical insurance (also the reason San Francisco is losing business, but I don't think anyone has figured out how to tax THAT sin, yet).

Daniels isn't perfect. You take the bad with the good. If you think we could have survived another 4 years being run by the unions and the Lake County gang, you are simply foolish.

I choose to look at how I want the state to be for my grandchildren. I would prefer that they not feel compelled to relocate to other states in order to find career opportunities, and I would like Indiana to be something more than an unknown spot between Ohio and Illinois.

[mysterio]

Ah yes, Daylight Savings Time. The end of civilization as we know it.

No, but the end of a distinctly Hoosier tradition that the majority of the state didn't want. But Mitch wanted it. And he made a lot of people upset. So we are going to vote him out.

DST is ANNOYING to those of us who liked the old way. I am 57, so I remember when we DID have DST, before it was abolished. At one time we were also in the Central Time Zone, I believe. You know what? I will live through this change as well, and so will you. It is important to a lot of transportation industries that we be on an understandable time.

It will have no benefit whatsoever except that it will make people mad enough to vote out Mitch.

The Irsays are not getting a hand-out. Part of the deal for the new stadium involves the increase in the size of the Convention Center.

The Irsays are getting a billion dollar handout. They are a private business. If they want a new stadium, they should buy one. Wasting billions on corporate welfare is certainly not a "smaller, less intrusive government " policy.

Indianapolis has already lost conventions because we can't accomodate larger groups, even though people like Indianapolis because of the central location of all of its attractions and hotels. Lost conventions mean lost business and lost tax revenue. The loss of the Colts would have been a disaster to the business community in central Indiana.

No, Indiana is losing conventions because the weather here is either too hot or too cold year round, we are flat as a pancake, we have no oceans or mountains, and if you drive five minutes in any direction, you are in the middle of a cornfield. I'm sure the convention center we have already is perfectly sufficient to house conventions that want to come here. And even if it isn't, it is a tremendous waste of tax money.

As far as "sin taxes", well, as long as most people DON'T smoke, I am afraid that is going to be the way that the legislatures in all states raise their money. I have chosen to quit smoking, which is MY choice (made before the tax increase was announced). A case can be made that we lose some businesses because of the cost of medical insurance (also the reason San Francisco is losing business, but I don't think anyone has figured out how to tax THAT sin, yet).

Smaller, less intrusive government doesn't mean statist solutions to every non problem to generate more revenue for our cancerous tumor of a government.

Daniels isn't perfect. You take the bad with the good. If you think we could have survived another 4 years being run by the unions and the Lake County gang, you are simply foolish.

You're right, Daniels isn't perfect. And his angering of Hoosiers is going to insure another decade of dumocrat government. But that's not enough to scare me into voting for big government Republicans any more. Candidates like him taught me it's stupid not to vote for the candidate you actually agree with, even if they are only going to get 1% of the vote. We would have been eons better off with Gividen.

I choose to look at how I want the state to be for my grandchildren. I would prefer that they not feel compelled to relocate to other states in order to find career opportunities, and I would like Indiana to be something more than an unknown spot between Ohio and Illinois.

Statism isn't going to make Indiana more desirable.

And please don't think my anger and vitriol is directed at you. You support Daniels, and that's fine. I respect that. But I am bitterly disappointed with him and the way he and other statists have been forcing unwanted policies on our state. So if I have been short with you, I apologize.

[arasina]

Well said, Miss M.

[Miss Marple]

That's ok. I think before you get too angry, you take a detailed look at the stadium deal, and also at the toll road thing. I don't think they are going to cost the taxpayers nearly as much as you think.

One thing that happens when Republicans get elected is that people expect things that they can't deliver. Imagine if Daniels had ignored the stadium and had refused to work out a deal. You know what Mayor Peterson wanted to do? He wanted to put casinos in the Mile Square!! Just what we need...more crooks downtown!!

After you get over your aggravation about the DST issue, take another look at what has been happening. I am not going to get angry about anything...tomorrow is my yearly appointment with the heart doctor about my blood pressure! LOL!

[stockstrader]

Daniels is nothing more than a RINO. He lost my vote forever when he played the traditional democratic card--class envy. He tried to impose a surcharge (one-time tax on those making over a $100,000/year). If that isn't democratic-type thinking, I don't know what is! I would never vote for Daniels after his efforts on that one. Thank goodness that the legislature OVERRODE him plan on that one!

[stockstrader]

oops.....OVERRODE his plan on that one.

[mysterio]

Good luck with your appointment, and don't drink any coffee or stimulants before hand. And whatever you do, don't watch the news before going. It is guaranteed to raise your blood pressure!

[Miss Marple]

Well, keep in mind that the state constitution requires not being in debt, and the democrats had bled everything dry. So, it didn't pass. That means the legislature did their job, and Daniels had to do some more working with the budget (which is why we now have this toll road deal and the proposed cigarette tax.)

I fail to understand why you expect Daniels to think exactly like you do. He isn't your clone. Do you think that Kernan would have done better? Heck, he would have just raised taxes on everyone and spent whatever is left of the state pension funds. Peterson would have casinos in the downtown with kickbacks going to the gaming commission and the state employees would have been proceeding with their usual non-working while on the job.

The budget will be balanced in June. That's a pretty major accomplishement, one that you would have never gotten under Kernan.

By the way, when people start throwing that "statist" term around, I tend to think they have pretty much made up their minds a long time ago.

[stockstrader]

Geeez, I don't expect him to think like I do. Where did I say that? However, I also don't expect him to think like John Kerry (with his soak the rich proposal) either. Heck, at least Kerry set the 'penalty threshhold' at $200,000, instead of $100,000. You can rationalize Daniels' plan anyway you like--and you can vote for him if you like, but I would never vote for anyone who practices class warfare with the traditional democratic mantra of 'penalize the rich'.

[Sunnyflorida]

Lots of toll roads in Florida. I kind of like 'em. If I had my way I'd privatize the entire FDOT.

[mongrel]

"Revenue over 75 years if at 100M$ now, plus 3% more per year, would be 27,263 Million dollars. 27 Billion for those of us in USA."

Bad math. The actual value of the lease deal after 75 years is $100 billion. There is a huge difference between having cash in hand now versus the future. The toll road can be run more cheaply by a private company because of depreciation and the fact that they won't be paying overpaid, unionized booth workers. They also will do better at keeping contracts competitive versus all the kickbacks that now happen.

I drive the toll road several times a week and this is a good deal for Indiana and I support it.

[Abathar]

Ok, tell me how it is a national security issue? They only lease the land that the road sits on, and if it is a toll road they make their money by cars driving on it. What are they going to do, shut the road down? Tear it up and take it with them? If they do anything outside the contract with the state they then are forfeit of the right to collect tolls and the state instantly regains control of the road again. Once the road is put in WE have all the leverage, you don't think that the state or federal government wouldn't nationalize those things in a heartbeat if people started playing political games with our infrastructure?

[Smokin' Joe]

THEY are going to build it through new terrain.

So how much property will be stolen through eminent domain to let this happen?

What about the existing roads? are they going to stay and be maintained (in competition) or will those be 'permitted' to decay?

Just curious..

[Abathar]

No, this will have nothing to do with the older roads, they will be maintained (HA!) the same, there will just have to be a budget increase for the new stretches of highway that are put down is all.

As for the eminent domain issue then yes, some property will have to be taken, and from the looks of it I will lose the new 15k sq ft building I am sitting in right now if they finalize the cloverleaf interchange proposed at the cross street here. I am not excited about this, they will pay me a fair price for it, and its not like I have to give it up for someone else to rebuild something bigger for the tax base. We send out trucks all over this state, and I know first hand how much it would benefit the state to have a central artery from Indy down to Evansville, it would be a boom to the bottom half of the state that is all back roads only to get to.

[Smokin' Joe]

So, the interstate is coming through your outhouse...

...they will pay me a fair price for it....

I hope for your sake they do. Most people I know who have experience with eminent domain have come out on the short end.

... and its not like I have to give it up for someone else to rebuild something bigger for the tax base.

Actually, that is exactly what you are doing, you just see benefit in it for you, too.

In your analysis, how well do you think the country roads will stand up to an inevitable increase in traffic that comes with better access?

[Abathar]

As the interstate comes so does the tax base increase, its a fair trade off. Yes roads will take a beating and need upgrading, but this has been going on since before Ford put out the model T.

I have had my building appraised by 2 people between 775k and 850k respectively, and I plotted both my lots together so that they have to take all or nothing if it comes through. I subcontracted and built this place myself, its all block construction and I did it for a total cost of 385K, 10 years ago before things started really growing here. Even if they take the lower estimate I will make out ok, I will just rebuild again on my own something even bigger, its not like my business has a great sentimental value, its just a nice solid industrial building that has appreciated nicely.

[hedgetrimmer]

Once the road is put in WE have all the leverage, you don't think that the state or federal government wouldn't nationalize those things in a heartbeat if people started playing political games with our infrastructure?

No, because the "free trade" agreements our goverment signs obligates us to protect the interests of "direct foreign investment" over the interests of our citizens.

Once the borders are erased through trade,the pandoras box is opened for all kinds of abuse, the flood of illegal immigrants being one example of this.

Also the gasoline additive MTBE showcased the authority of a foreign company over California citizens when California attempted to remove it from the gasoline sold here.

[Abathar]

Free trade has nothing to do with a signed contract. If any company doesn't honor their commitment to the contract they signed (and I bet it has provisions that covers all sorts of things about stopping the flow of traffic and rate increases, that or we elected TOTAL idiots) then the state can declare a breach and kick them right out of the picture legally - No matter what the Direct Foreign Investment laws are. It is in the best interest of the consortium that bought this lease to get as many cars as possible to drive on their roads, it is the only way they will recoup their investment, it would be utter stupidity for them to do anything to jeopardize this, the state would have spent the down payment money and they would be screwing themselves.