Posted on 12/07/2005 3:31:28 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
if it's not a fable and no sin (no matter how small or finite) can be in the presence of the living God, then you're in trouble.
If that's what the Bible says—and you would know that better than I—I must say, so much the worse for the Bible. Everything I know about what it means to be reasonable and what it means to be merciful and what it means to be just tells me that no infinitely reasonable, infinitely merciful and infinitely just deity would decree infinite punishment for a finite transgression. In my view, if the Bible says this, the Bible has got it wrong.
But—as you might say—"That's your view." And—should you say that—you would be correct, sir!
Best regards...
Not precisely; I associated it with epilepsy, brain damage, and psychosis.
Specifically, I was responding to AG's claim the "divine revelation" is a reliable source of knowledge. I pointed out that the "observer problem" exists in this case as well as all others. I used the examples of Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Baha'ullah, and a friend of mine who hears the BVM. I gave the prophets the benefit of the doubt with respect to their sincerity.
But the truth is, I don't know of any reliable way of distinguishing madness or epilepsy from "divine revelation" except to give the affected person medical treatment and see if it stops or not. The "known by their fruit" test seems to say that Mohammed was not revealing divine stuff but was mad or epileptic, but that Smith and Baha'ullah were in fact true prophets, because the Mormons and Bahai seem to be good people who respect their neighbors and worship their God. (Personally, I think Smith was quite mad; can't say about Baha'ullah)
That is a one-sided characterization because it fails to explain the beauty of Western Civilization.
I wasn't addressing the beauty of Western Civ., but here's my opinion.
There is very little of "divine revelation" that has made any difference to our civilization: St Paul and Constantine are the only two that come to mind (Mohammed too, in a way). Absent the former there would be no Christianity; that would certainly change civilization as we know it, but there's no way to say how. My guess is we'd still have Mithraism.
If Constantine had remained true to the faith of his fathers, again, things would be different, but it's impossible to say in what way. My guess is that we'd still have polytheism.
The worth of the individual is not a uniquely Western or Christian thought; Confucius was part-way there, and the Eastern Orthodox didn't go there at all. The technologcal inventions are also not uniquely western; printing, paper, and gunpowder came from China and zero from the Hindus. Trial by jury is from the pagan Germans. Limited governmant can be traced back to a bunch of power-hungry barons at Runnymeade.
There has been speculation that the reason technology took off in Europe and not China (or Rome) was the lack of strong central government to suppress it.
But my main point still stands: "divine revelation" had little to do with forming out civilization, compared to hard work, courage, inventiveness, and just plain luck.
Do you even care to? I simply say again that madness and epilepsy don't create a civilization.
Periodicity I would think also includes aspects of nature which have some continual recurrence that is not exclusively equal in time.
I just wanted to address my post to a friendly guy. LOL
Not only is Dawkins arrogant: he's an idiot!
I know. :^)
LOLOL!!! Thanks for the chuckle, YHAOS!
Athiestic Atomic Theory? Could you please give me an example?
And can't you do better?
Yes, we moderns are ever so much superior to these rubes, who putatively were incapable of drawing the connection between sex and the rather regular arrival of children, nine moons later. Like these brutes couldn't even count, for God's sake.
Notwithstanding these rubes created some world-class art that continues to speak to us today, from perhaps as much as 27 millennia ago. Go figure.
If you doubt my claim, just go Google on "Lascaux" and fire up the first link. Then you can take it from there.
Who has interpreted the Dead Man of Lascaux as "the shaman with a bird mask in a trance" such that I need credit him? Any why — what theory does he expound? And why should I find that intrinsically valuable?
Sorry for venting. I'm just getting sick and tired of the arrogance of the modern-day intelligentsia. [May God help you if you are in that party.]
Oh? How so, RightWhale? Give me an example please.
LoL....
I personally think Mormonism is loony, but as people go, I've never met a badly behaved Mormon. This is quite a contrast to my experience with people of other denominations. Perhaps my sample is not representitive.
They also have the only TV channel that plays good music.
Heavens to Betsy, BB, it was an honest question.
Here's The Straight Dope discussing it.
[Is the Lascaux figure a shaman?]
Discussion by Leakey of shaman interpretations
Last sentence:
The place is imbued with meaning, but we can't decipher what is being said. The potency is palpable, but we are culturally blind to its content. In seeking to understand our origins, we come away from a place like Lascaux with a deep conviction of connectedness, and a humility at the power of the human mind....
Google Lascaux and shaman for more.
You really think counting is "built in" and isn't a fairly recent invention? How about reading and writing?
Pretty much my experience as well. I've met a few who were into alternatative healing, homeopathy, etc., but they took their kids to standard doctors when anything serious came up, in contrast to eg. Christian Scientists.
I'm pretty much into self-healing unless something serious comes up. I have a pretty clear picture of when medicine is necessary and when it's hand-holding, with three MDs and a registered nurse in my immediate family. Any time a doctor says they have a pill, but it will get better by itself, I choose itself.
You and me both. AS far as I'm concerned, homeopathy is "itself".
Check out #817, if you like.
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