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Introduction: The Illusion of Design [Richard Dawkins]
Natural History Magazine ^ | November 2005 | Richard Dawkins

Posted on 12/07/2005 3:31:28 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

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To: Alamo-Girl; r9etb; Right Wing Professor
Maybe the original point has been lost on this thread somewhere (and correct me if I'm mistaken), but I believe RWP is talking about spatial inversion - this concept is used often in quantum field theory - i.e. whether or not objects/particles are invariant under spatial i.e. parity inversion. The concept does not pertain as to whether such an inversion is physically possible; it is just a mathematical tool used to investigate the symmetries of objects/particle.

Unless an object has symmetry, a 3-D inversion will change it to a different object. For example, invert all 3 dimensions of a screw, and you have a screw with the opposite thread direction - you can't get back to the original object by simply rotating it. Invert a 1-D line-like object in 3-D space, though, you still have the same object - just rotate it back around. However, if you "live" in a 1-D space and you invert a 1-D object, it is a new object, because you can't get the same object back without rotating it through a 2nd dimension (which doesn't "exist" in a 1-D space). Basically, a body inverted along N dimensions in an N-dimensional space is not invariant unless there is a symmetry along at least one dimension, but a body inverted along N-1 or less dimensions in an N-dimensional space is invariant.

r9etb, I thought the question you referred to as "dim" was the most insightful one on this subject here (made me think pretty hard about this).

521 posted on 12/08/2005 1:59:00 PM PST by Quark2005 (No time to play. One post per day.)
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To: Right Wing Professor; Alamo-Girl
"Who said anything about time passing? Where is time in the inversion operation I x -> - x? "

Inverison is a logical construct. It's a function of intelligence. W/o some underlying physical reality to provide the mechanics of that intellegence function, the logical construct doesn't exist. IOWs if there's no one arround to ponder, nothing will be pondered.

The physical universe is the set of all physical reality. Physical reality requires the dimenisonal attributes of location and persistence. Time is a measure of persistence. The peceptible universe is 4D. If one ponders a lower dimensional universe persistence is fixed at some sufficiently long lifetime.

522 posted on 12/08/2005 2:03:30 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Alamo-Girl
Inversion is an event. If there is no time in RWP's single dimension universe, an inversion will not occur.

An inversion operation is not an event. Your argument is circular. An event implies it occured at some point in time. Once again, where is time as a variable in the identity I posted? You still haven't answered the question.

523 posted on 12/08/2005 2:04:54 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: spunkets

http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/writings/articles/accident.html

I think the burden on those who believe quantum events are not truely random.


524 posted on 12/08/2005 2:09:01 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: betty boop
No. She has asserted that one could not perform an inversion in a 1D universe without stepping outside it. But that's a false assertion. There is nothing in the formal structure of a 1D inversion that needs to contain more than one coordinate - the coordinate of that dimension.

The problem you're both having is that you're trying to think intuitively in a formal system for which your intuition really doesn't work. The way you're thinking about inverting something is to turn it. There's another way, by the way, that that doesn't work in a space of odd dimension. Example: inverting a right hand gives a left hand. But you can't rotate a right hand onto a left hand.

525 posted on 12/08/2005 2:12:57 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: js1138
"I think the burden on those who believe quantum events are not truely random."

Randomness is a property of event occurance in the system. It does not refer to causation. You said uncaused events happen. There are no uncaused events.

526 posted on 12/08/2005 2:36:37 PM PST by spunkets
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To: betty boop
[ Yours is a most fascinating speculation. I can't say it's wrong, dear hosepipe. And I'll be thinking it over some more! ]

So then I have NOT decended into total Moonbatery.. Thats a relief.. Nothing worse that being a loney Moonbat in a real cave alone.. All squeeks then, are your own echos.. Thanks..

527 posted on 12/08/2005 2:44:54 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: BelegStrongbow

BUMP! [as if this type of thread needed it]


528 posted on 12/08/2005 2:45:51 PM PST by razorbak
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To: hosepipe
All squeaks then, are your own echos.

The social criterion of truth is one of the hardest to resist. It seems to be a kind of might-makes-right argument and presses its way into the popular conscience through polling practices. It shows to the poverty of the human psyche. At least we need not by cycloptic and accept it as the criterion.

In the opening of the Republic, Socrates' friends compel him to join them, and he asks for a good reason. They reply, "because we are more than you."

529 posted on 12/08/2005 2:59:24 PM PST by cornelis
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To: js1138
I think the burden on those who believe quantum events are not truely random.

You ever play pool with Hume?

530 posted on 12/08/2005 3:03:42 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: cornelis
[ The social criterion of truth is one of the hardest to resist. It seems to be a kind of might-makes-right argument and presses its way into the popular conscience through polling practices. It shows to the poverty of the human psyche. At least we need not by cycloptic and accept it as the criterion. ]

The statement could send Prof. Erwin Cory away humiliated..
But somehow it makes me "feel" better about myself.. Thanks..
You are a piece of work, Cornelis...

531 posted on 12/08/2005 3:08:39 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: Dimensio
Because they [much deleted] starts ranting and raving about secularism. When a creationist tells me that "Sorry to break it to you but you and Hiter have the same ideas." not because of any political or social views that I expressed but simply because I happen to accept the theory of evolution.

did one person really do all that shit, or is that kind of a "greatest hits" compendium?

532 posted on 12/08/2005 3:10:25 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: snarks_when_bored

I hate these threads. There are hardly ever any pictures of Ann Coulter.


533 posted on 12/08/2005 3:10:46 PM PST by Poser (Willing to fight for oil)
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To: Poser

Best post of the day!!!!!


534 posted on 12/08/2005 3:12:40 PM PST by chronic_loser
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To: Dimensio

Well, now you've effectively cut it down from "many" to "some." When you get to "a few wingnuts" then perhaps we can talk about their "wickedness".


535 posted on 12/08/2005 3:22:29 PM PST by r9etb
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To: spunkets

If an event is truely random, explain the cause.


536 posted on 12/08/2005 3:23:08 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Poser
I hate these threads. There are hardly ever any pictures of Ann Coulter

They're on every post, actually -- but taken from the side.

537 posted on 12/08/2005 3:23:09 PM PST by r9etb
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To: ml1954

I am going to put a different spin on time. I think, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that time will be found to be particulate.

It makes for interesting contemplations.


538 posted on 12/08/2005 3:28:08 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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To: chronic_loser
did one person really do all that shit, or is that kind of a "greatest hits" compendium?

Each incident came from a different creationist poster, except in the one case where I made mention of a creationist doing two things to illustrate that particular creationist's hypocracy.

If all of that had really just come from one person, I wouldn't be making unpleasant generalizations that have gotten r9etb in such a tizzy.
539 posted on 12/08/2005 3:32:35 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: js1138
"If an event is truely random, explain the cause.

Random simply refers to a distribution of outcomes for events. The cause is what drives the events in the first place. Note these are both general concepts. Pointing to a particular cause requires a particular system to examine. Do you have an example where you want a cause IDed?

540 posted on 12/08/2005 3:34:59 PM PST by spunkets
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