Posted on 08/24/2005 9:40:44 PM PDT by RobFromGa
Which is exactly the point I am trying to make, without splitting hairs between the EU definition of value added, and our sales taxes in various locales.
Therefore I'll just write "sales tax," and we are in agreement, semantics aside..
The difference between a retail sales tax and a VAT is fundamental, not merely splitting hairs. Thus leaves us at substantial disagreement in a very basic manner.
A retail sales tax is collected only an point of sale for final consumption and is fully visible being collected from the consumer/voter openly at point of sale. That is why government prefer the levy of income taxes and VATs the mechanics of which are mostly out of sight of the average citizen.
A VAT, unlike the retail sales tax, is imposed throughout the full chain of production operating on business purchases effecting the economy in profound manner throughout acting in a less visible and more insidious manner causing dislocations and problems throughout an economy.
Definition [ http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/13330.html ]:
value-added tax
levy imposed on businesses at all levels of production of a good or service, and based on the increase in price, or value, added to the good or service by each level. Because all stages of a value-added tax are ultimately passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, it has been described as a hidden sales tax. Originally introduced in France (1954), it is now used by most W European countries.
That VATs main claim to fame is its capacity to extract revenues from an economy at much higher levels than other tax systems as it operates generally out of the view of the general population and provides endless opportunites for political machinations behind the curtain of commercial activity.
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/pdtx31.html
*** VAT is the most efficient tax ever devised, since it doesn't discourage production as much as other taxes that raise the same revenue. It is also nearly invisible and therefore easily raised.
The revenues from VAT have helped expand the welfare state. In 1965, government spending as a share of gross national product in Western Europe averaged 34.5 percent; but by 1993, spending had risen to 52.1 percent. Business welfare also expanded, with industrial subsidies at least four times as high in Europe as in the U.S. And for European workers, VAT helped create a poverty trap, as direct taxes discouraged work, and generous benefits cut the cost of not working. Source: Bruce Bartlett, "Shadow of VATman," National Review, March 25, 1996. |
If you ignore me I will assume you are an IRS agent who carries a loaded gun to point at my head to either get my money or send me to jail.As if would care what YOU assume...
I have stated in numerous threads and even TO YOU in a mannerly way that the only savings would be from 10 to 18%.I missed the part where you said employee's would NOT get 100% of their paychecks while employers saved 10 to 18%...would you like to show where you said that?
This is oxymoronic. There's already a tax on marijuana, how well do they do at collecting that? There are already any number of taxes due from the underground economy that don't go collected. What makes you think that the same people won't buy off the black market?
Fully taxed? This country already has markets in illegal drugs, illegal labor, illegal cars and parts, illegal booze, illegal cigarettes... With an NRST and open borders for goods due to CAFTA, that market will explode.
The only reason those goods are sold illegally is that the amount of the tax makes it worth the risk of getting caught.
Realize the National Retail Sales Tax implemented under the FairTax legislation does not exempt products or services. Instead it provides a sales tax rebate mechanism paid to all legal residents equally to provide for payment of the sales tax on expenditures at the HHS poverty level defined for size of household. This avoids the necessity and problems of making such definitions and specific exceptions as you mention which obviously are the source of much manipulation and political wrangling in the state sales taxes.
Given the byzantine tax code we have, you are asserting that Congress won't insert line items into budget bills altering sales taxes for specific goods before the ink on the NRST is dry? What planet are you living on?
When you clean the slate it becomes more difficult to favor a specific group without raising the hackles of everyone else.
"More difficult" will likely last about 45 minutes. Until you've seen the machinations of the California State Board of Equalization over sales tax minutae (an Orwellian name if there ever was one), you can't tell me that Congress will leave this alone. No way.
Look, I have been an advocate of sales taxes for twenty-five years. I applaud the intent to have the public recognize the cost of government in every purchase. I wait for the day that every spending bill will be discussed in terms of its impact on a visible tax that every citizen confronts every day. But until we can get spending down to about 10% of sales, I promise you, the size of black market you'll see will be mind boggling, the number of exemptions for specific uses and products will be daunting, and the mechanics of enforcement will make the WOD look like a garden party. The burden of calculating tax collections on thousands of goods at a myriad of rates under various conditions will fall heavily upon all but the largest of retailers, who, I am certain, love this proposal.
When the advocates of NRST start to deal honestly with the public, I'll pay more attention to what they have to say.
Yeah I know. I didn't have time. Its a long story.
Read the Fair Tax Book.
If I have an income of 100 dollars and a tax of 10 dollars, then I have 90 spending dollars after taxes. I have a take home of 90 dollars that I am used to receiving.
If Company X produces a car that costs 100 dollars and it charges that 100 dollars instead of 90 dollars because 10 dollars represents imbedded taxes, then some car company might charge 90 dollars for the car if the 10 dollar tax is removed.
If this is incorrect, I would appreciate it if someone would spell it out in simple terms for a simple mind.
Prior to the tax removal, my 90 dollar income would not pay for the 100 dollar car. After the tax removal, my 90 dollar income might pay for the car if the company responds to tax cessation by reducing it's price to 90 dollars.
The burden of calculating tax collections on thousands of goods at a myriad of rates under various conditions will fall heavily upon all but the largest of retailers, who, I am certain, love this proposal.Maybe not.
Statement of Del Threadgill, Vice President of Taxes,...."I am here today to express the retail industry's strong opposition to a proposed National Retail Sales Tax (NRST)"....J.C. Penney Company, Dallas, TX, and
Chairman, Taxation Committee, National Retail Federation
Read the Fair Tax Book.It's fiction or haven't you been paying attention.
"The book" is your bible not mine. I've been studying this for years, what makes you think I need to read a book written by a talk show host about taxes?
Yeah #1 on New York times because its fiction... Did I tell you I have some beach front property in Iowa for sale? Yeah I can tell you have been studying it for years since you are so articulate...... LOL!
Here read his daily news,
http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
Yeah #1 on New York times[sic] because its fiction... Did I tell you I have some beach front property in Iowa for sale? Yeah I can tell you have been studying it for years since you are so articulate...... LOL!I seem to have a huge impact on you. You even did a search on my name...Who's the fool in that picture?
So your "#1 on New York times"[sic] "read the Fairtax book" mantra is as articulate as you've been so far.
Did you have something of substance other than me you wanted to know about?
Here read his daily news,Why?
To educate you on the Fair Tax
To educate you on the Fair TaxAs the saying goes, I forgot more than you and your lover Boortz know about the fairtax combined.
What you really mean is you want me to believe, as you do, what he's written...I've seen it all regurgitated too many times.
You and Neal should really think about getting a room somewhere.
I was referring to the Wal*Mart's of the world as the exceptions.
mark
I was referring to the Wal*Mart's of the world as the exceptions.My mistake...
All you do is hurl insults. You can't even make one valid point on why you love the current income tax so much. Don't bother replying back since you make no points and only insults.
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