Posted on 08/24/2005 4:15:35 PM PDT by Libloather
"So far as I know, all courts permit people who do not accept Jewish/Christian Scripture to simply make an affirmation that they will tell the truth. This is a non-issue."
WRONG! ! !
Dear Livius,
What part of a Muslim not having to tell the truth to an unbeliever can you not understand?
No matter what the Muslim says, he can't be bound to an oath of truth if an unbeliever is involved. Muslims have carte blanche to lie to the unbeliever.
Therefore, anything which a Muslim says to an unbeliever is possibly a lie. Their 'faith' allows this. Learn to live with it. The Muslims did.
If you are in an Iranian courtroom, yer screwd.
whatever...
either do it or don't. It is really the non issue of non issues. I don't honestly care one way or the other.
This is a pointless exercise in futility and arguments.
Me neither. I'm an agnostic, but if I were ever called to swear on the bible, I would do so - in the spirit that I am swearing on my honor and by everything that I do hold dear, to tell the truth.
Once we start that "Quran for this person, Bible for that person, whatever for a Buddhist", etc., there will so many "holy" books floating around, there would be scarce room for anything else.
Despite the ACLU's protestations, the above HAS to be a ploy to get the bible out of the courts.
"'m blind! what was that mess? Just kidding, I know that some things don't post well, there may be a good HTML code to correct it but I don't know what it is."
Yea when I tried to read it my eyes started to roll up. That is why I reposted the URL link.
I did this once before, and should have known better. Guess some dopes never learn.
Sorry all.
The only reason for swearing in is so you can be charged with perjury if you are found out to be lying.
The stuff about swearing in or this or that book is simply to take advantage of people's supersitions.
I agree completely. If they are liars, they are going to lie, whatever they might place their right hand upon. If they swear upon a Koran that might make them think twice about lying, I say bring the Koran on.
Opposition to this is irrational.
Yeah.
I can name any number of people that have lied to me, to my face, just after church....and they professed to be "Christian".
The point is that it isn't the Book they swear upon, but the person that is doing the swearing.
...it will remind the faithful and honest of the seriousness of their oaths...
Thank God some of us are thinking clearly here.
WHAT exactly would be lost by allowing Suiceed Al-Bombeer
to swear to tell the truth on his stupid book? Not that it would improve anything- it simply can't make anything worse, as some xenophobes seem to be suggesting. Christians won't be forced to swear allegiance to Allah, for crying out loud.
Your post reinforces my assertion that the law fancies itself to be the ultimate force on earth.
I assert that human nature will not respect the power of law over the power of religious belief, push come to shove. Blackstone (and others) agree.
Right. Lessismore said it all in Post 106.
I think there is a religious reservation about what's going on here. And Rush Limbaugh didn't help by acting all outraged about it yesterday. THERE ARE DECENT MUSLIMS IN AMERICA!
Why can they not be decent Americans in a court room? I'd love to hear a rational reason why a ridiculous bible ceremony in a public courtroom is A-Ok, but a ridiculous Koran ceremony (that might have an effect on a terrorist's
truthfulness) represents a disintegration of American culture. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" folks.
well didn't ya know that if you swear to the Qu'ran then we start to go into Sharia law and blah blah blah...
You aren't required to swear on the Bible in the first place.
Take their victim status away and let them reveal themselves for who they truly are....
Here ya go...
Qur'an 3:27: "Let not the believers take the disbelievers for friends rather than believers. And whoever does this has no connection with Allah unless it is done to guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully. And Allah cautions you against His retribution. And to Allah is the eventual coming."
Qur'an 16:106: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty.
Big difference from Christianity. When Jesus was rebuked by the Pharisees for hanging out with bartenders, hookers, and tax collectors, he replied "Does a doctor practice his trade among the well?"
Are Muslims presumed by the Qur'an to be so weak in their faith that they can't even associate with non-Muslims? That would be like contemporary Christians only associating with other Christians, only watching Christian TV and only listening to Christian music- oh, wait- never mind.
Pig hide QU'RAN might be ok.
3:27 doesn't seem to address telling a lie at all, much less a lie under oath. And 16:106 turns on the interpretation of "under duress" which every mullah, imam, or islamic scholar I've been able to find interpret to mean "under threat of death." The rest of it clearly says there will be "wrath from Allah" and "a dreadful penalty" for telling a lie. That hardly supports the position that it is OK for a Muslim to lie in court after swearing on a Koran. Just the opposite in fact.
No. If they are not Christian, they make make a simply affirmation.
I further think that the position you take here is fairly arguable.
Some of the founders asserted that the BOR was superfluous, under the reasoning that the plain language of the Constitution gives NO power to the Federal government to make laws respecting the establishment of religion, or forbidding the free exercize thereof.
Given the principle of a Constitution of -limited- federal power, it is harder to argue that the federal power is -supreme- over religious belief, as a matter of Con Law; nevermind the spiritual angle where people blow off the law in subservience to a higher power.
My point boils down to the FACT that given a choice between violating the law and violating one's religion, EVERYBODY who adheres to their religion will violate the law.
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