Biblical Scroll Found in Desert

Guardian (U.K.) ^ | Saturday July 16, 2005

[DelphiUser]

YES! SOMBODY OUT THERE GETS IT!!!

Ahem, Sorry you had to see that.

[XR7]

Sorry you had to see that.

What?

[Free Baptist]

Mormon Church

[stboz]

What if it turns out to be somebody's old honey-dew list?

Go to the market...fix sandals....change the oil in the donkey......

[the invisib1e hand]

Go to the market...fix sandals....change the oil in the donkey......

....put a C-note on that dude they call Ben-Hur....

[Free Baptist]

The Claims of being the "restored" are too easy. Our missionary work in the Philippines leads us to Iglesia Ni Cristo (Filipino version Church of Christ, now branching into the USA where there are many Filipinos) and Ang Dating Daan ("The Old Paths"), and even an indigenous non-Vatican Catholic Church of which I fail to be able to give the Tagalog name accurately. ALL claim to be the "restorers" of something lost.

On the other side, you have the Roman Catholics who believe themselves to be the true succession from Pater, and then the USA version "Churches of Christ" (of Alexander Campbell -- early 19th Century) which claims an unbroken line, and then even my wonderful friends (sarcasm), the "Baptist-Briders" who claim that John the Baptist gave the materials or candidates for membership to Jesus, Who started the "First Baptist Church of Jerusalem," and that to be in the Bride, you must be baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized by someone who was baptized . . . all the way back to John in Jordan. Well, I have never met one of these Baptist Briders (Boy, do they hate me! I give 'em FITS!!) who believes that being saved or born again depends on Baptist church membership, but I hear that there are a few who will go that far. Most try to separate being in the Bride from being saved.

In my observation, the connection between ALL above is the attempt to prove the legitimacy of something VISIBLE and highly organized with MAN at the helm.

My reading of the New Testament does NOT teach me that the Body of Christ -- the TRUE Church, necessarily depends on anything that I can see with my mortal eyes, or be initiated into by humanly administered ordinances. The Body of Christ is a SPIRITUAL Body in Christ and the baptism and circumcision connected with it are together done WITHOUT HANDS; an operation of God Himself...that is, by His Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13; Colossians 2:8-12; etc.). When I repented of my own way, and trusted in the Person, Redemption Work and Merits of the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE, God accepted me in His Beloved (Eph. 1:6), and performed what was necessary to regenerate me (Titus 3:5; etc.), and He made me a child of His own (1 John 3:1-4).

I don't have to join ANYTHING on this earth to enjoy my Savior's love and His benefits toward me as a Child of God. I am a member of a Baptist church, but I NEVER have considered that membership as essential to my relationship or my sonship with God. I joined for fellowship and growth, and I minister there for fellowship and the edification of other believers. We preach NO doctrine that would imply that salvation depends on us, or upon our "system of theology," or membership in any local (or denominational) church.

So, I am hoping to point those who may read these posts to the Person and Redemption Work of our Lord Jesus Christ. NO church can save you . . . only Jesus Christ, Personally, can save you. (John 14:6)

[Free Baptist]

I used to pay close attention to FREE REPUBLIC years ago, and then our work in Asia became too intense for us to have time to sit long at a computer. When we returned to the United States I thought that I would take another look, and was even surprised that my original log-in registration was still good.

I am coming to the conclusion that there are few, what I may call, "ecclesiatically free" individuals among those who claim to be Christians, who post to Free Republic. The religionists who post to Free Republic, for the most part (but maybe not all...I am not sure), are those who believe that THEIR PARTICULAR CHURCH is THE conduit to the Grace of God. The overwhelming majority who post about these matters, who claim to be Christian, are defenders of highly liturgical, clerical, and ecclesiastically suppressive organizations. "WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE -- OUR 'CHURCH' IS THE ONLY WAY -- OUR CHURCH FATHERS, AND THEY ALONE, ARE GOD'S TRUE SPOKESMEN -- THE BIBLE REFERENCES TO 'CHURCH' ALL REFER TO OUR CHURCH" appears to be the mentality of the "Christians" involved in these posts.

I am querying: Are there any Baptists, Presbyterians, Bible Church members, Methodists, Lutherans, Assemblies, Church of God (Anderson or Cleveland), others, who log on to Free Republic and will boldly say that ONLY JESUS CHRIST is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man come unto the Father but by Him, and no church organization can forbid the repentant sinner who comes honestly to Jesus Christ by faith?

Or is Free Republic overwhelmingly dominated by liturgical (Episcopal form or otherwise), highly organizationally-stressed religionists?

[RFEngineer]

"Pretty darn close, by my counting"

Well, thanks for at least being a bit specific about your beliefs. I have no beef with Mormons, but it is extremely difficult to get Mormons to be specifc their beliefs in a concise way, at least not until you watch the video.

As an ex-episcopalian, I suppose I have a bit of a kinship of sorts with Mormons. Both religions honestly think they are Christian, but both also are not - but it is not the fault of the layperson that their leadership pursues an agenda that is as much earthly, as heavenly. Most adherents are probably better people for their involvement with their respective organizations, than they would be without said involvement. Neither adherent is beyond redemption - which I sincerely hope for them.

It's not a bash, its an acknowledgement of differences, for better or for worse, and a sincere wish for their eventual salvation.

[RFEngineer]

"Or is Free Republic overwhelmingly dominated by liturgical (Episcopal form or otherwise), highly organizationally-stressed religionists?"

So, let me get this straight, we "traditional Anglicans" suffer from a "Mormon Problem"?

If you more or less follow the Nicene Creed, you've got it about right.....any differences beyond that are differences among men, which concern me very little.

[DelphiUser]

>>ONLY JESUS CHRIST is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man come
>> unto the Father but by Him, and no church organization can forbid the
>> repentant sinner who comes honestly to Jesus Christ by faith

I agree as far as this statement goes, but I will not make the leap that churches do not matter.

Words mean things.
Churches use words to teach.
The teachings of churches differ.
The understanding that those churches engender in their adherents varies, and the amount of understanding you have of God the father, and in his son Jesus Christ is paramount in obtaining eternal life. (John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)

I do not want to start a war of words so instead I will commend you for your service in the name of the Lord.

Go with God.

[DelphiUser]

>>So, let me get this straight, we "traditional Anglicans" suffer from a "Mormon Problem"?
LOL!!

Don't take it too hard. We'll let you join :-)

So, why is the decision of politicians meeting hundreds of years after Christ (451 AD) an important determiner of whether or not you are acceptable company?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[RFEngineer]

"Don't take it too hard. We'll let you join :-)"

That much I know....I wish you had a "do not recruit" list I could be put on!

It's all in fun, hence the ping.....

The Church of 451 has nothing to do with whether I'm acceptable company or not. I'm grateful for their efforts then in preserving the faith.

[DelphiUser]

>>I wish you had a "do not recruit" list I could be put on!

LOL!

We have a Recruit List :-)
http://www.lds.org/sharefriend/1,14111,3724-1,00.html

Want on ? ;-)

[RFEngineer]

"We have a Recruit List :-) ....Want on ? ;-) "

I'm already there, apparently.

[FatherofFive]

"They have nothing to do with any church"

For that to be true, you need to ignore scripture.

You never addressed the few bits I posted earlier:

From post 186:

Now, here’s the interesting part, and the part of scripture that you need to ignore to make your personal interpretation work. The word “Church” in Matthew 16 is from the Greek “ekklesia.” This word “ekklesia” occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice).

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church (ekklesia). If he refuses to listen even to the church (ekklesia), then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

It is the same church in Matthew 16 and 18. Here it refers not to the entire church of Jesus, as in Matthew 16:18, but to the local congregation of the same Church.

Clearly, the Church in Matthew 16 is the Church Christ said he will build. The Church of Matthew 16 is the same Church of Matthew 18.

How can you take it to the Church if it doesn't exist?

From post 187:
For answers, you should go to “the pillar and foundation of the truth.” Which is not the Bible. “Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:14-15

You go to the Church. THE church, the one Jesus promised to guide into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that His Church teaches only the truth. And teaches with authority - "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16)

So the "the pillar and foundation of the truth" also doesn't exist?

I suggest you try this. You seem to come to the Bible with a tradition that says the Church doesn't exist. Try reading the actual words, and stop ignoring those parts that don't fit your personal interpretations and traditions of men.

[Free Baptist]

That's right, I am a son of God by faith in the Person of Christ, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit baptized me (no water necessary - 1 Cor. 12:13) into Christ. That established my relationship with my Savior, His Father and His Holy Spirit.

Matthew 18 doesn't address my once-for-ever sonship and eternal relationship with God in Christ. It is, however, very practical method for Christian discipline in any local assembly ("ekklesia") of believers.

Yes, doctrinally speaking, strictly, the Matthew 18 church is the same church as Matthew 16...a Jewish Church, not a Gentile church, not a Roman Catholic Church, not a Baptist Church, not a Presbyterian church ... Trying to make it YOUR church (What, are you Catholic lawyer, or something??) is just your bent, your penchant, the result of the domination your denomination has over your intellect. Of course, Christ will build that Church...a Church of believing Israelites who are concerned about those Keys of David in Isaiah 22, etc. ... the Kingdom Church, the Millennial Church. Certainly not any denomination that exists today. It is yet future, because the people to whom it was/is promised, the people (the church/ekklesia/kahal) which He led through the wilderness(Duet. ch. 32; Acts 7:38), the people that will one day repent and return to him. ISRAEL, literally and physically.

Right. The Church (1 Tim 3:14, 14) which is the pillar and ground of the truth is the church that has the Scriptures as its final authority, so that the common believer can challenge those who come in, as Paul warned, and attempt to subvert the church, as have generations and generations of popes, cardinals, archbishops bishops and priests. The defense against such subverters is THE WORD OF HIS GRACE (See Acts 20:27-32). The WORD OF HIS GRACE, not a visible church, that builds up the Christians and gives them an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. And by the way, that means that ALL those in Christ are SAINTS. No visible church or denomination can decide who is and who ain't saints.

The Subject of the Holy Spirit in His work in Christians is found in John 16:12, 13, but not the subject of any church organization. Luke 10:16 is specific to to the "other seventy" (v. 1) and has to do with the preaching of the Davidic Kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven), which NO visible church or denomination is preaching today. You think they are? Okay, then let them obey verses 4-12 as well ... LITERALLY as did the "other seventy" along with the Twelve apostles. NO church clerical order is practicing those verses today.

No, I don't come with the tradition that the Church doesn't exist. It does exist. You have come with the perversion that the word "church" is always talking about the same body of people every time the word is used.

[Free Baptist]

Churches which have the Bible as their final authority are VERY important for the growth of a Christian. No church is a conduit of salvation, nor can a church hinder salvation from occuring when a person believes upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Free Baptist]

Oh, no, Anglicans I have spoken to certainly don't have the same problems as members of the LDS Church. If I read history correctly, Anglicans have more experience with standing in dissent against over-bearing clerics, without fearing forfeiture of their relationship with Christ. Am I correct?

[FatherofFive]

“a Jewish Church, not a Gentile church”

Wrong again.

In 1 Timothy (1 Tim 1:3), Timothy is described as the administrator of the entire Ephesian community. These were not Jews. They were Gentiles. Read again the words that Paul spoke to this Gentile church - “Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:14-15 Sounds like a Church to me.

I quote scripture to you, and you call this a perversion.


“The Church (1 Tim 3:14, 14) which is the pillar and ground of the truth is the church that has the Scriptures as its final authority”

Wrong again.

Christ said many things. But Christ never said "Everything you need to follow me is found in the Bible" Christ never told anyone "Write down what I just told you, so future generations will know what I want them to do"

Where is your rule -- that the Church has Scripture as the final authority-- found in the Bible?

The Bible actually tells us just the opposite-

“I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.” (1 Cor. 11:2).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the holy Spirit that dwells within us." (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess. 2:15)

" So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well." (2 Tim. 2:1-2).

"‘Although I have much to write to you, I do not intend to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and to speak face to face so that our joy may be complete." (2 John 12).

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

The Bible itself never makes that claim that it is all you need - this belief is a tradition of man.

“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) However, the Scripture that Timothy studied in his infancy was the Old Testament. Paul said nothing about the New Testament here, much of which was not yet written at the time.

So two simple questions –
1.Where does the Bible say that it contains all you need?
2. Where is your rule -- that the Church has Scripture as the final authority-- found in the Bible?

And please try to use scripture to craft a response.

[Free Baptist]

The Church of 1 Timothy is not the same church as Matthew 16. The Church of the Pauline epistles are not the "church" of Matthew 16.

Matthew 16. Israeli.
Pauline Epistles. Gentile.

YOUR perversion (not the Scripture's perversion, for it has none) is failure to Rightly divide (2 Timothy 2:15), and you think that "church," therefore is always referring to the same entity with the same kind of members every time you see the word.

No, I was not telling you that the church in 1 Timothy is Jewish. The Church to which the Lord Jesus was referring in Matthew 16 is not the same church to which Paul was writing in ANY of His epistles except HEBREWS (Get that? "HEBREWS") Hebrews are what???

The whole point, which you chose to ignore is that CONTEXT must determine which church is being written about, not a singular definition of "church" prescribed by your denomination (or mine).

Your church does not want to submit itself to the written Word, because your leaders want the prerogative to re-intpret and re-interpret, and re-interpret (or ignore, and ignore , and ignore) the Scriptures depending on what they want performed to keep themselves in power.