Carthage Tries To Live Down Image As Site Of Infanticide

Post-Gazette/Wall Street Journal ^ | 5-26-2004 | Andrew Higgins

[blam]

GGG Ping.

[inquest]

"We didn't do it," says the 69-year-old archaeologist, rejecting accusations that the ancient citizens of this North African land sacrificed babies to appease their gods.

"We"? You and they aren't even the same people. The Romans wiped out the Carthaginians, and the Arabs moved in some centuries later. It'd be like Americans referring to pre-Columbian Indian practices with the word "we".

[wideawake]

Infant sacrifice by fire in Phoenician cultures and Carthage in particular is well-attested.

There is a ton of archaeological and significant documentary evidence.

But it seems as if Tunisia will now conveniently misplace much of the existing evidence.

Shameless revisionism.

[TruthConquers]

Historical revisionism rears its ugly head!

[siunevada]

"We must stop looking at our past through the eyes of foreigners," says Mr. Fantar, "When Arabs read and understand our own history, we will be at the dawn of a real revolution. This is what we are trying to do in Tunisia."

Maybe they could tailor their tourist programs to Planned Parenthood members.

Mr. Fantar shouldn't worry, he is probably not a descendant of the Carthaginians defeated by Rome. He's a descendant of the later conquerors.

[Graymatter]

Exactly. There's evidence. Nobody ginned it up special just to make Carthage look bad, or to justify the Romans.

[wideawake]

Modern Tunisians are an ethnic mix of ancient Pheonicians (themselves a Semitic people), Greek and Roman settlers, Berbers and Arabs.

Arab ancestry, of course, predominates.

[Pete]

Such practices are documented in the Bible.

From Deuteronomy 18:9-13

9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God

[ReadyNow]

Arab honesty.

[inquest]

Mr. Fantar shouldn't worry, he is probably not a descendant of the Carthaginians defeated by Rome.

Considering the the Romans slaughtered every last inhabitant of Carthage, except for about 50,000 who were shipped to Rome to live out the rest of their lives in slavery, I'd consider that a pretty good bet.

[Sam the Sham]

Actually, it is why the Romans regarded Carthage with such horror.

The Carthaginian elites never understood that. The Punic elites did not understand that Rome regarded Carthage with such loathing that it was a life or death total war.

[inquest]

I don't think there was much left of the Phoenician stock by the time the Romans were done with them.

By the way, Arabs are Hamitic, not Semitic.

[inquest]

The Punic elites did not understand that Rome regarded Carthage with such loathing that it was a life or death total war.

It wasn't life or death. Carthage was no longer a threat to Rome when Rome finally destroyed it. Rome just did it out of spite.

[wideawake]

I don't think there was much left of the Phoenician stock by the time the Romans were done with them.

Probably not. But there were still many Phoenician slave girls on Roman estates in Numidia.

By the way, Arabs are Hamitic, not Semitic.

You are incorrect.

[Sam the Sham]

In Rome's eye a nation so evil that it could burn babies was an abomination that HAD to be destroyed. A people who would do that are so beyond any pale of acceptable human behavior that no peace with them is possible.

So the constant Roman propaganda about Carthaginian "treachery". Hate made it a life or death struggle.

Carthaginian elites did not understand that Rome utterly hated them and would only be satisfied with their destruction.

[Oberon]

Not only is there a ton of evidence, but some of it bears the symbology later adopted by Islam. Say hello to the moon-god, folks...

The Tophet to the south of Carthage and west of the harbors was the area where children (up to 4 years old) were sacrificed and buried. Sometimes animals would be substituted in place of children, but as Carthage's fortunes began to wane, the substitution became less common. As Diodorus Siculus records:

"They were filled with superstitious dread, for they believed they had neglected the honors of the gods that had been established by their fathers. In their zeal to make amends for their omission, they selected 200 of the noblest children and sacrificed them publicly; and others who were under suspicion sacrificed themselves voluntarily, in a number not less than 300." (Diodorus 20.14.1-7 and following).

Graver Markers from the Tophet area. The funeral stele on the left dates to the fourth century BCE. The Punic characters indicate that it is a dedication to the Tophet's divinities. Photo from Khader and Soren (1987), 151, no. 14. The stele on the right dates to the same period. The stele exhibits traditional symbols of the sun and moon (crescent). Photo is from Khader and Soren (1987), 151 no. 15

[yarddog]

I think you are right. I specifically remember Anwar Sadat saying he was Semitic.

I also recall that many Egyptians were angry that we had a Negro portray Sadat in a movie.

[Graymatter]

Oh, I can't agree with that. The Carthaginians' moral shortcomings were broadcast to the Roman citizens, to stir up support for the wars, but nobody would prosecute the Punic wars because of infanticide. It was because Carthage was stepping on Roman toes. They were economic rivals, and neither could see much farther than their noses, in that regard.
"War is a failure of trade," eh?

PS: About Hillary in the primaries...go here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411541/posts?page=49#49

[Restorer]

I don't think there was much left of the Phoenician stock by the time the Romans were done with them.

Not true. Septimium Severus, a later Emperor, was partly of Punic descent. The Carthaginians had a huge empire, with many subordinate cities. Most of them were not destroyed in the way Carthage was.

Arabs are Hamitic, not Semitic.

Not true, unless you make up your own definitions. According to the Bible, Arabs are descended from Ishmael, Abraham's other son.

They also speak a Semitic language, quite closely related to Hebrew.