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Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant (Religion bashing alert)
Times Online UK ^ | May 21, 2005 | Richard Dawkins

Posted on 05/25/2005 3:41:22 AM PDT by billorites

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To: Right Wing Professor

"Are you asking if there's any reason, beyond accidental, for the association of specific codes with particular amino acids? There are some speculative ideas floating around about this, but little experimental evidence."

Yes, that is precisely what I'm asking - do you happen to know what any of these speculations involve?


361 posted on 05/25/2005 2:20:19 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: agrace

Post-event editing cannot be ruled out in any prophetic situation. You accept that did not happen in the Bible's case, though much of it predates its actually being written down (sometime during the Babylonian exile), giving the authors plenty of leeway at creative editing. Yet you do not accept it in similar situations with other religions.


362 posted on 05/25/2005 2:20:46 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Right Wing Professor
Well, I'll agree with your list of predictions, but I note they all follow from common descent with or without any particular Darwinian (or non-Darwinian) mechanism to explain the dynamics.

This is part of what drives me mad about 'the debate'. Both sides consistenly obscure the distinction between the three meanings of 'evolution' I mentioned in my semi-defense of Behe. The first (allele and phenotype dynamics) is simply an observable fact; the second (common descent) is plainly a solid falsifiable (a single organism with a different system of codons would suffice) scientific theory and every observation to date supports it; the last (neo-Darwinism) is the one I'm not even sure manages to be a theory (though once one vacates 'random variation' the way the definition at http://evonet.sdsc.edu/evoscisociety/what_is_evolution.htm does) and leaves natural selection as a tautology (rather than 'so formulat[ing it] as to be far from tautological') which seems to be the tendancy, lest a falsification of a particular such formulation give aid and comfort to religious obscurantists, it's a 'fact' too (but not a very interesting one), provided one drops the insistence on its completeness and sufficiency as an explanation.

363 posted on 05/25/2005 2:21:00 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (Christ is Risen! Christos Anesti! Khristos Voskrese! Al-Masih Qam! Hristos a Inviat!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew

Bite me.


364 posted on 05/25/2005 2:21:42 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: ArGee
As for the gruesome deaths of the Apostles, those are a part of Church History. They are not well documented but have been handed down for nearly 2000 years.

I see you have a grasp of this argument that nearly equals your grasp of Galileo's political acumen. The proponent I spoke of argued, as I said, that the 500, not the Apostles, were mysteriously put to death by a conspiracy of some sort.

365 posted on 05/25/2005 2:23:48 PM PDT by donh
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To: ArGee

So what about the previous claim that many of them were secretly tracked down and tortured then murdered by some mysterious cabal?


366 posted on 05/25/2005 2:24:20 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: donh


367 posted on 05/25/2005 2:24:20 PM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Junior
though much of it predates its actually being written down (sometime during the Babylonian exile)

Examples?

368 posted on 05/25/2005 2:26:54 PM PDT by agrace (All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen. - Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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To: Junior
Bite me.



369 posted on 05/25/2005 2:27:49 PM PDT by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: The_Reader_David
second (common descent) is plainly a solid falsifiable (a single organism with a different system of codons would suffice) scientific theory and every observation to date supports it

Common descent is not what it used to be. It is no longer thought by the mainstream of biological science that a single organism gave rise to all life. Which, by the way, if so, casts a serious measure of doubt on the single-system-of-codon falsification notion.

370 posted on 05/25/2005 2:28:01 PM PDT by donh
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To: PatrickHenry
Yeah, well I'm Sparticus.

I thought you were Marilyn Monroe?

371 posted on 05/25/2005 2:29:05 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: The_Reader_David
I fail to understand the basis for calling evolution by random (used loosely) variation and natural selection a tautology; nor do I see how it fails to be predictive. It predicts, for example, high observed mutation rates in non-functional parts of the genome, and very low rates in genes of ancient lineage. The latter prediction has been confirmed many times, and the former is mostly confirmed, although the observation of highly conserved regions of DNA with no known function often gets IDers all excited (I remain confident they will be determined to be functional).

Ultimately, one would like to see a path from organism A to organism B by mutation and natural selection, with every step in between a viable organism. I'm confident eventually we will be able to reconstruct such a pathway, though we simply don't have the experimental capability of doing it yet.

372 posted on 05/25/2005 2:32:38 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: agrace

I always thought Pharaoh's dream falls into this category. The Egyptians never recorded seven years of feast followed by seven years of famine. Of course, if the whole thing were written down many centuries after the fact, no one would have to bother with such piddly little details.


373 posted on 05/25/2005 2:33:00 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Junior
To the tune of another BOC song:

"Freepers don't fear the Crevos... You know that trolling is a creationist game..."

"Don't be like they are... (don't fear the crevos...)"

(Help me out here Junior.)

374 posted on 05/25/2005 2:33:32 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: nyconse
One of the most fascinating bits of science lately is that Palies now believe that all modern men (and women) are descended from one woman who came out of Africa-imagine that. It reinforces the biblical version of creation.

ah, no. Too much Discovery Channel, not enough Cell and Molecular Biology.

375 posted on 05/25/2005 2:34:34 PM PDT by King Prout (blast and char it among fetid buzzard guts!)
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To: Junior

Remember though, Dawkins isn't someone to take seriously on evolution.


376 posted on 05/25/2005 2:34:46 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: agrace
The Bible is a compilation of 66 books written by over 40 different authors, some of them prophets, some of them not, but all commonly linked by their belief in YHWH, God of Israel, and their remarkably consistent message.

Oh dear. You think Leviticus and the Gospel of St. Matthew are consistent?

377 posted on 05/25/2005 2:35:22 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: RightWingNilla
It's Just a Theory

(with apologies to Blue Oyster Cult)

Darwin's time has come
Evolution now is gone
Creos don't like the theory
We're certain it's just plain wrong.
They can be like we are

Come on creos ... It's just a theory
No need to listen ... It's just a theory
Darwin's on the outs ... It's just a theory
All his links are missin'...

S. J. Gould is done
P.E. now is gone
Behe, Miller, Hovind
Will now tell us how it's done
Behe, Miller, Hovind...

Americans believe the creos ... Behe, Miller, Hovind
Americans believe the creos ... Tell us how it's done
And more are joining us everyday ... You can be like we are

Come on creos ... It's just a theory
No need to listen ... It's just a theory
Darwin's on the outs ... It's just a theory
All his links are missin'...

Evolutionary biology
Was here but now it's gone
We'll replace it with ID
Regardless if it's really wrong
We regard it as a kind of tool
It's just a wedge to get God in school
To see how many we can fool
Saying, "join the creos..."

Come on creos ... And then they came
Flocked in droves ... We ain't no slime
Turned the clock backward in time
You'll become like we are
No need for research
You'll become like we are

Come on creos ... It's just a theory

378 posted on 05/25/2005 2:36:17 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: Junior
no one would have to bother with such piddly little details.

...and so a tradition was born....

379 posted on 05/25/2005 2:36:47 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Tribune7

Why not?


380 posted on 05/25/2005 2:37:06 PM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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