Britain faces big chill as ocean current slows

The Sunday Times ^

[dixie sass]

Years ago, I read descriptions of London that talked of the Thames being frozen in winter and the Londoners having fairs on the river. It sounds as though Britain, now that the industrial age is past, is going to return to it's true weather patterns.

[ancient_geezer]

Is this a reply to my question? If so, you still have not answered it.

#134 was in response to your #126 post of website making a number of claims though little in what I would recognize as hard data or analysis.

My #139 is in response to your question from #133.

A little patience goes along way. One does not necessarily sit on a forum continuously, there are more than one call on one's time. And I do not consider Global Warming as my most important task to answer to.

[Centurion2000]

Save as many as you can.

[Centurion2000]

Looks to me like the recent geological history is showing that Earth is in a comparitive deep freeze compared to the rest of the time life has been on earth.

[ancient_geezer]

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=24095

 

Galactic dust cooling Earth?
Controversial climate claim exonerates carbon dioxide.
Source: Copyright 2003, Nature
Date: July 8, 2003
Byline:  TOM CLARKE

Shaviv and climatologist Ján Veizer of Ruhr University, Germany, reckon that the spiral arms of our galaxy hold the secret to the Earth's see-sawing climate. Every 150 million years, blasts of cosmic rays cool the planet on its stately passage through the cosmos, they argue2.

Cosmic rays thrown out by dying stars in the dust-rich arms of the Milky Way increase the number of charged particles in our atmosphere. There is some evidence that these may encourage low-level clouds to form, which cool the Earth.

Shaviv and Veizer have created a mathematical model of the number of cosmic rays hitting our atmosphere. They compared its predictions with other researchers' estimates of global temperatures and carbon dioxide levels over the past 500 million years.

They conclude that cosmic rays alone can account for 75% of the change in global climate during that period, and that less than half of the global warming seen since the beginning of the twentieth century is due to greenhouse gases.

*** SNIP ***

Shaviv attempts to explain how the Sun's natural variability affects the number of cosmic rays hitting the Earth, says Harrison. The Sun also produces radiation similar to cosmic rays, especially at the hottest part - called the solar maximum - of its 11-year cycle. Previous studies have failed to tease apart the climatic impacts of this radiation, of cosmic rays from the galaxy, and of warmth from the Sun.

Upcoming research should help clarify the situation. Physicists plan to mimic cloud formation in the lab by using particle accelerators to create cosmic-ray-like radiation.

 

See the research at CERN in the proposed CLOUD study alluded to in the above article

==>IACI Workshop - Transparencies & Proceedings

 

See also, Svensmark: ==>COSMIC RAYS AND EARTH'S CLIMATE

[rwfromkansas]

It should be mentioned that this would almost assuredly make the northeast U.S. get colder as well.

[rwfromkansas]

Though this is not a big issue. Yeah, it will get a bit colder, but nothing to panic about.

[kabar]

A little patience goes along way. One does not necessarily sit on a forum continuously, there are more than one call on one's time. And I do not consider Global Warming as my most important task to answer to.

Sorry if my question sounded like I was impatient. Since you didn't indicate what you were replying to, I was just seeking a clarification. You can resond or not respond in your own good time. I don't sit on the forum continuously either.

[kabar]

Based on the graphs, it appears that over the last 420 kyrs (Vostok Ice) a fairly regular pattern emerges. If that is the case, we should see a fairly precipitous drop in temperature in the not too distant future.

[Nucluside]

Whoaooo! Best post I've read in months! You've done my debate research for me.

[ancient_geezer]

Based on the graphs, it appears that over the last 420 kyrs (Vostok Ice) a fairly regular pattern emerges. If that is the case, we should see a fairly precipitous drop in temperature in the not too distant future.

Very possibly in geological terms, though the time scale of the graph can leave 5-10 centuries(a pixelwidth) in which such a move could develop. That is one of the problems with most graphs in geological time scales on a computer, one looses sight of what a single pixel can represent. A lot can happen in a millenium.

---

A more uptodate paper on glacial cycles, a collaboration of J. Kirkby, of the CERN CLOUD project, and Dr. Muller's work in Astronomical relationships attempting to bring the effects of changes in the shorter term geomagnetic effects adn100kyr astrophysical effects on cosmic ray flux together.

 

The glacial cycles and cosmic rays

Authors: J. Kirkby, A. Mangini, R.A. Muller
Report-no: CERN-PH-EP/2004-027
Subj-class: Atmospheric and Oceanic Physics; Geophysics; Space Physics

The cause of the glacial cycles remains a mystery. The origin is widely accepted to be astronomical since paleoclimatic archives contain strong spectral components that match the frequencies of Earth's orbital modulation. Milankovitch insolation theory contains similar frequencies and has become established as the standard model of the glacial cycles. However, high precision paleoclimatic data have revealed serious discrepancies with the Milankovitch model that fundamentally challenge its validity and re-open the question of what causes the glacial cycles. We propose here that the ice ages are initially driven not by insolation cycles but by cosmic ray changes, probably through their effect on clouds. This conclusion is based on a wide range of evidence, including results presented here on speleothem growth in caves in Austria and Oman, and on a record of cosmic ray flux over the past 220 kyr obtained from the 10Be composition of deep-ocean sediments.

Full Text PDF: http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0407/0407005.pdf

[ancient_geezer]

You've done my debate research for me.

Wait till you get through #123 and beyond, there's more. LOL

[Nucluside]

I did, thanks.

[ancient_geezer]

Since you didn't indicate what you were replying to

A place to look, is on the bottom line of any comment, in the links part:

==> [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

The | To 142 | in this case for your comment, is a link pointing to the comment being replied to.

Under this reply you will likewise find a similar link | To 148 | to the comment you authored that this reply is for.

Neat huh??? John Robinson done good in the bells & whistles department :O)

[kabar]

Thanks. It took me several years to learn that one.

[lepton]

it would be easy to verify.
1) Identify the heat trapping gasses
2) Compare the percentages now with before those before the Industrial Revolution for example.

No need for spin, numbers are numbers.

That would hardly be definitive...for example, if the sun is actually hotter now, it would be driving CO2 out of solution from the oceans.

The main heat trapping gas is water vapor...which varies according to a great many factors, from ambient temperature to land-mass distribution, to weather patterns, and so forth.

[MaxMax]

Beans..

[deaconjim]

Weather back home ping!

[lepton]

On the other hand, the changes in North Atlantic water temperatures and salinity are a matter of direct observation of the best understood sea system on the planet.

Which isn't saying too much.

[lepton]

If that is true, then even the most stringent CO2 reductions will not stop global warming and other remedies may have to be devised.

Dropping the Kyoto requirements for particulates might be a simple step. Teller noted several ideas a few years ago, most of which were less than a Billion dollars a year, by which the entire globe could be cooled.