Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Precisely! That's what Catholics believe. We believe we are not only called to a share in Christ's redemptive act, but also His redemptive work. This is a real problem in discussions between Catholics and Protestants, we truly read the Bible differently.
For example, are you a part of the Body of Christ? Well, what bought our redemption? The Body of Christ. What do you think Jesus means when he tells us we must be willing to 'take up our crosses?'
This doesn't mean we can save ourselves. Without His sacrifice we would be utterly hopeless. But with His sacrifice we have the opportunity for a share in His life. All followers of Christ are co-redeemers. Its what He wanted for us. Its why He died.
Anyways, Keep seeking truth.
I have been baptized. BTW..
Well, you actually changed the debate. I said that people were born again when they were baptised.
Seems all your resources go to Latin....Rome. Regardless of how you expound none of these words are in the bible.
No where does it say God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit.
There is but one God and He is the Father.
Jesus never said to pray to him, he said pray in this manner, Our Father who art in Heaven. It says to pray in his name but never to him. Nor does it say anywhere to pray to the Holy Spirit. That blows your trinity doctrine out of the water. I would even feel more at ease with the word tri-unity....but also not a word found in scripture, so I feel it best left alone.
Just so you know, baptism is necessary for salvation. I think the thief was saved; and I think he recieved baptism by desire. Would you deny Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Or John 3:3: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (See also:1 Pet. 3:21; 22:16, Rom.;Acts 2:38, 6:3–4; Col. 2:11–12) Even Martin Luther believed baptism was necessary, see Large Catechism 4:6: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat."
I couldn't disagree more. Who cares about a show of faith to others? That is irrelevant. See Matthew 6.
I would reply but I have been kicked off the thread, lol
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WHAT? Who kicked you off the thread? That is silly, its just a discussion.
I am certainly not so weak in my faith that I feel I have to kick someone out of a discussion because I don't agree with what they are saying.
If I could, I would agree with you, lol
Christians shouldn't hide their lights under a bushel basket.
In a religious context.
Christians also shouldn't practice their faith for the adulation of others. (Matthew 6:1-6)
If a guy got baptized for the sake of enjoying how much others view him as some "super spiritual" person, that would be wrong. That would be worshiping the image of self.
But to use the occasion to make a statement about Jesus Christ in the hope that their faith is encouraged or that their soul is saved, is quite right.
Goodnight everyone....looks like things are slowing down and I am whooped. :) Have a great weekend, I enjoyed the passionate discussions, and would like to leave it on a pleasant note. Says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." I guess we are all just workin.
#756 was a reply to what he said, I was quoting and responding. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
You fail to see the point I am making. First, I don't remember bringing up the topic of Mary worship. The point I am making is that I, a non-Catholic, have a better understanding of the Catachism than most of my in-laws and friends who are Catholic. They can't even begin to explain what is in it, so they can't even attempt to defend it.
They go through motions of "praying" to Mary, and if you accuse them of worshipping Mary, they have no defense to give. They just stare at you with nothing to say. As far as they are concerned, they ARE worshipping Mary, because they have been shown a tradition with no explaination, thus they have no concept of what or why they do what they do.
I may have disagreements with the Catholic Church, but I find that most of the Catholics I know don't understand the teachings they have been exposed to. They go through motions that have no meaning to them, yet they trust in those very actions for their salvation.
How real is their salvation when they have no understanding?
"Seems all your resources go to Latin....Rome. Regardless of how you expound none of these words are in the bible. "
I find it interesting that you seem to discount words and phrases because they "go to Latin....Rome". It was in Rome in the early days of Christianity where the bible's content was formalized (170 AD to 382 and it was a Roman emporer (constantine) who greatly aided in the process.
Incidentally, the Apostle's Creed also known as the Nicene Creed was agreed upon in 325 AD (well before the formalization of the Bible). Early Christians needed something to define their beliefs and the Creed was what they agreed upon. Catholics carry on the tradition of the early christians by reciting the creed.
Catholics should not "Worship" Mary. I was attempting to state the offical position. I agree some Catholics don't understand the differnce in asking Mary to intercede on our behalf and direct prayer to God.Good night and God Bless.
Only a pure and unblemished sacrifice could atone for the sins of the world. Hence Christ could not have inherited original sin.
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Had to go talk to my Heavenly Father about this comment....gasp...yes this nut talks to God and is Holy Spirit taught (imagine that since we were told the Holy Spirit was sent to be our TEACHER and comforter.) Here is what He told me.....and it comes much like Peter's answer when Jesus asked Peter, "Whom do you say I am." I believe Jesus told Peter from where his answer came.
Inherited sin came from DISOBEDIENCE, it was thru this that Adam and Eve became blemished and all mankind (yes even Mary) it was thru OBEDIENCE that Jesus was unblemished. Jesus defeated the part of Mary and mankind that was in him, by obeying his Father. He broke the curse of disobedience set on us by Adam. Did he want to? No...he prayed in the Garden, "Father if it be possible remove this cup from me." BUT he still obeyed....right up to and past where all mankinds sins were laid on him and he cried.."My God, My God why have you forsaken me." From the pain and anquish. He defeated his flesh...He defeated the grave and death and He is the first fruits of what is to come at the resurrection when all the dead will rise to judgement. When the grave and death are cast into the Lake of FIRE along with those who chose the wide path that leads to destruction.
I am the Church, adiaireton8....I am a living stone, one of many living stones and my foundation is on the rock (your system proclaims that rock to be on Peter, when it was on WHAT Peter said) which is Christ the Messiah, the son of God, the Lamb of God. God ripped the veil of the Temple from TOP to bottom with a great earthquake at the crucifiction.........your system puts it BACK UP in vain rebellion. I need no go between other than Christ to go to my Heavenly Father. I serve no system nor defend ANY denomination. They are man made........look at the fruit, its rotten, it stinks and the world becomes more and more wicked, rebellious and disobedient.
You stand in sand....which is nothing more than crushed rock. The truth crushed and moveable. I know what "Truth" is.....He said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall MAKE you FREE." I believe him.
Catholics carry on the tradition of the early christians by reciting the creed.
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"The TRADITIONS of men make the word of God of NO EFFECT."
Being without original sin is not sufficient to be an atonement for the sins of the whole world. Anselm in Cur Deus Homo show why the redeemer had to be God. Mary was not God; she was human. And therefore, Mary could not be the one whose death takes away the sins of the world. Morover, Mary was sanctified at her conception by the grace of Christ. But the redeemer cannot be in need of redemption.
-A8
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