Posted on 04/05/2005 10:01:52 PM PDT by Coleus
Okay, those quotes above are supposed to be red. I have no idea why they aren't!
Your example does not contradict my post.
Does God or does Mary provide grace and glory for us?
Speaking for myself only.
She is more powerful than God himself for even He cannot resist her request.
Not the romantic, are you!
Would it not be unreasonable to argue that God takes great pleasure in granting His children, particularly through the Mother of His Son, their petitions and requests?
Read the psalms.
And Cerularius excommunicated Leo IX right afterwards.
Okay. :)
Is the Baptist faith you follow that which began in Amsterdam in 1605 -founded by John Smyth? Further, am I right to assume you believe that [in essence] once one is 'saved' they are always 'saved'?
Rome left them by changing the Church with certain "innovations" that made it no longer follow established church doctrine. The Eastern Orthodox Church remains truer to the orginal church than the current Roman Catholic Church.
THE INNOVATIONS
Although the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are closer to the beliefs of the Orthodox Church than are those of any other churches, it is necessary to list a few of the innovations added by the Roman Church after the separation of the Western from the Eastern Church. Also, it is necessary to mention that the attitude of the Western section of the One Church, even before the Schism, was not free from arbitrariness. The Western branch tended to centralize administrative power, a characteristic inherited from the early Roman political tendencies toward a totalitarian government. Following is the list of innovations.
Primacy
The supreme episcopal jurisdiction of the Pope, who is called the Vicar of Christ (a title of the Roman pontiff dating from the 8th century) expresses his claim to universal jurisdiction and implies that the other bishops are not equal to him, but subordinate to him as his representatives - a claim that is foreign to the ancient Church.
Infallibility
In 1870 the Roman Catholic Church, at the Vatican Council, declared that infallibility (the inability to err in teaching the revealed truth) was attached to the definition of the Pope in matters of faith and morals, apart from the consent of the Church. The Vatican Council declared:
"Jesus Christ has three existences. His personal existence, which Arius denied; His mystical existence in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, which Calvin denied; and His other existence, which completes the first two and through which He lives constantly, namely His authority in the person of His Vicar on Earth. The Council, maintaining this third existence, assures the world that is possesses Jesus Christ."
Herein, the Synods were abolished.
The Procession of the Holy Spirit
The insertion of the phrase filoque, meaning "and the son", in the eighth article of the Nicene Creed, to read that the Holy Spirit proceeds not only from the Father but also from the Son as well, perverts the theological teaching of the Gospel and the Undivided Church (John 15,26; Acts 2,33).
Purgatory and indulgences
Purgatory is an intermediate state where souls are made clean for paradise by expiatory suffering, according to the Roman Church. It is a place or state for penitent souls departing this life cleansed from venial sins and temporal punishment due to remitted mortal sins. In the Roman Church, indulgences are a remission by those authorized of the temporary punishment still due to sin after sacramental absolution either in this world or in purgatory.
The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary
In 1854 a council of the Vatican pronounced the new teaching that the Virgin Mary was born without original sin, a statement not found either in the Holy Scriptures or in Sacrad Tradition. (The Undivided Church taught and teaches the virgin birth of Jesus Christ only) The Orthodox Church honors highly the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, the unique personality chosen by God to serve the highest mission toward the salvation of mankind in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Assumption of the Virgin Mary
The assumption (bodily ascension) of the Virgin Mary was pronounced as a dogma in 1952 by the Pope of the Rome Church. This belief is not found in the Scriptures nor is it found in the Sacred Tradition.
Baptism
Baptism, which originally was an immersion of the body of the faithful in the water, was replaced during the 14th century in the Roman Church by sprinkling.
Invocation
The invocation, or epiklesis, which is a prayer offered at the time of the change of the Holy Gifts (bread and wine), is omitted by the Roman Church, which uses only the scriptural words, "Take, eat ..." and "Drink ye all of it ..."
Unleavened Bread
Unleavened bread is used by the Roman Church instead of leavened bread, which was the tradition of the Undivided Church.
Holy Communion
Holy Communion in the Roman Church is given to the layman only from the sanctified bread and not from the sanctified wine, which now is restricted to the clergy.
Holy Unction
Holy Unction is offered as last rites to the sick, an innovation of the eleventh century.
Divorce
Divorce is not granted to the faithful in the Roman Church, which the Undivided Church issued.
Clergy's Marital Status
Marriage of the clergy is prohibited, a restriction imposed in the later centuries against the decision of the First Ecumenical Synod (325 A.D.).
That would be like me attempting to excommunicate the Pope after being excommunicated -not possible EVEN if prior to my excommunication -simply because there is but one primacy/pontif.
Because God answers some prayers, but not others. If you pray for the lotto numbers to hit so you will become rich tonight, you probably won't get your wish fulfilled. But if you pray for the strength to work hard, or for the will to overcome your fears, or for the right decision about something, then you stand a better chance of it being granted.
Otherwise I can convert to Catholicism and pray to Mary to get God to make my lotto numbers come up tonight and I will be rich tomorrow as "what she asks, she obtains" and she wouldn't deny my wish would she?
Oh there have been several duelling popes/antipopes over the years. And the very fact that you claim there is only one is part of the problem. At the time the Patriarch of Rome and of Constantinople were equal until the Roman Patriarch decided otherwise.
You were repeating that "Rome left them" in 1054 and I have shown you the opposite. Now you repeat again "Rome left them" and attempt to legitimate this claim by showing supposed "innovations" that occurred before and or well after the schism?
The Catholic Church through the living teaching body of the Magisterium maintains the deposit of faith and more fully develops teachings over time as understanding is gained or specific teaching is required.
What some may term "innovation" is but further development as result of faith seeking understanding... e.g. stem cell research, euthanasia by feeding tube, abortion, cloning.
As noted at the beginning of this post, the "innovation" laundry list provided is actually meaningless regarding the schism and the primacy of Rome.
As this does not apply to primacy -might I suggest you just accept this is just more propaganda and that you could just as easily as I search for specific Catholic answers to cut and paste to refute this detour from the question of primacy --LOL?
Yes, there were well documented anti-popes "anti" relative to the one true pope Just as the Holy See is vacant now and has been vacant before and as Pope John Paul II will have but one legitimate successor so has it always been -but one... As to Constantinople -as you have been shown the schism began because the Patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated in addition he attempted to claim equality with the primacy (another anti-pope attempt LOL). You are welcomed to reference something otherwise.
In post 536 you responded with a sentence from my 533 (which you apparently haven’t read in full) which follows:
The Catholic Church condemns anyone who would pray to any being outside of God and His Christ as if to receive Grace and Glory apart from God
This statement is correct and it speaks for itself.
You then posted a partial transcript from the Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus issued by Pope Pius IX in 1854 whereby he proclaimed as dogma the Immaculate Conception of Mary the Mother of God. You did not use standard posting etiquette when doing this, whereby others might assume that you posted the whole document. You should have made it clear that it was only parts of the document that you posted and provided linking data to the whole document as well so that others would have it readily available to them.
In any event, you took this line from it:
"What she asks, she obtains."
And provided your own interpretation to it, which follows:
In other words, she can override God's own will. She is more powerful than God himself for even He cannot resist her request. Or so it says.
In my 545, I responded to those two lines above combined as follows:
Then what would be the point of asking? Is it not God's Will and desire for us to be in a relationship with Him? Isn't that why He revealed Himself to us to begin with?
I meant to imply, when taking your self interpretation seriously for a moment, that if Mary were more powerful than God, what would be the point of her asking Him (or anyone) for anything? She wouldn’t need to. That fact that she is in a position to ask God on our behalf bears out what I wrote in post 533. I furthermore was showing that God desires communication with His creatures, which is what prayer is.
I then proceeded to take on the ridiculous claim, implied by you, that Catholics must believe that Mary is more powerful than God Himself! I never wrote that. The clip from the Pope didn’t say that. You did! And you did by an illogical leap of interpretation.
With regards to your post 550, God hears and answers all prayers, except sometimes the answer is not what we were requesting. On the whole, I agree with your first statement regardless of the semantics involved with the concept of “not answering” prayers.
Your next statement touched with sarcasm…
Otherwise I can convert to Catholicism and pray to Mary to get God to make my lotto numbers come up tonight and I will be rich tomorrow as "what she asks, she obtains" and she wouldn't deny my wish would she?
…is just plain silly. Mary would only ask God for something good on your behalf. In her freedom, as primarily in God’s, I think it is safe to assume that “request denied” would be stamped all over your petition to her. Yes, she most certainly would deny a request that would hurt your eternal soul. She’s your Mother in Grace. Remember that. If you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior and Brother, remember who your Mother is. That’s what good mothers do.
Let me just post the two sentences directly preceding the partial clip you posted, which was a little awkward for you to leave out since it was all part one one section.
"Our soul overflows with joy and our tongue with exultation. We give, and we shall continue to give, the humblest and deepest thanks to Jesus Christ, our Lord, because through his singular grace he has granted to us, unworthy though we be, to decree and offer this honor and glory and praise to his most holy Mother."
I realize that you may not accept this dogma of the Faith, but read the whole document, if you so choose, and compare it to what I posted in post #533 to assure yourself that Catholics do not "worship" Mary.
"So long as it remains the centerpiece of the Catholic prayer life, I must in good concience regard the devotion to Mary in Roman Catholicism as meeting the criteria for worship, and her titles as usurping God's own."
The problem is that you are reading these things with ignorance in your head and malice in your heart.
Seek the truth.
Obviously.
Christ paid it all.
Obviously.
What happens in the sacrifice of the Mass is that Christ, acting through the priest, offers up His Body, under the appearances of bread and wine, to the Father, in an unbloody manner. Christ's sacrificial death on the cross is re-presented or made present.
Some people denied His presence in the Eucharist, even in Paul's day.
1 Corinthians 11:23-30I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [i.e., died].
You of course, understand that I believe the scriptures teach the Deity of Christ? AMPU
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