Pope Labels (Totaliarianism Masquerading As) Democracy "godless"

Telegraph ^ | 2/23/2005 | Bruce Johnston

[Campion]

In particular, look at #55 which says that separation of Church and State is an "Error"

Logically, either the Catholic religion is true, or it isn't. If the Pope believes that it isn't, then (with all due respect), he really ought to resign. :-)

But if he believes that it is, then logically he must also believe that government ought not to be completely neutral toward it. But to believe that would contradict "separation of Church and state". So it shouldn't surprise you that the Pope would be less than enthusiastic about "separation of Church and state". No historically-Protestant European state would have had anything good to say about it either, until relatively recently. (Now they've decided to separate the Church from the state, but keep the mosque and state on the same side. </sarcasm>)

The historical context of the Syllabus concerned events in the Italian Piedmont, which had (at that time) a government which was pro-Masonic and anti-Catholic. "Separation of Church and state" in that context included some activities by the state against the Church that I think you would not approve of at all. (I believe there was confiscation of Church property without confiscation, and also a movement to close down Catholic schools -- if memory serves.)

[Campion]

Oops ... should have been "confiscation of Church property without compensation".

[saradippity]

I can't wait until this gets published in the United States in English. Every thing I have read thus far,leads me to believe that this will have an enormous impact on the state of "man in the world". At the very least,on those men who care.

It builds on some of the great Catholic teaching and thinking he has reintroduced to the world in some of his encyclicals;specifically,Centisimus Annos,Veritatis Splendor and Fides et Ratio. He slowly and carefully brings our ancient Truths to the modern world using words and concepts that they can understand;again,that is for those who care.

[redgolum]

Good point. We are (hopefully not yet anyway) a democracy. We are a Republic.

All those who want to go back to monarchies need to spend a little time reading history. Monarchies can be just as decadent and screwed up as democracies and republics.

[steve-b]

But its main focus is the risk democracies pose to the law of God.

Same-old, same-old.

[Pyro7480]

The Pope is the same as al-Zarqawi? Give me a break!

[steve-b]

Both are attacking democracy for the same reasons. They are not opposed to the shortcomings of democracy (e.g. the way in which failed democracies degenerate into mob rule), but rather are opposed to its virtues (e.g. the way in which successful democracies develop a live-and-let-live ethos in which all civilized peaceful people can make a place for themselves).

[Campion]

the way in which successful democracies develop a live-and-let-live ethos in which all civilized peaceful people can make a place for themselves

You mean like killing 40 million kids in this country alone since 1973? Yeah, that sounds like "live-and-let-live" to me. More like the institutionalized and fully state-approved sponsorship of the murder of the weak by the strong.

But a question. Would your "live-and-let-live" ethos would include treating all obedient Catholics as terrorists, or potential terrorists, then? Or are you inconsistent?

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

The Theme Is Freedom: Religion, Politics, and the American Tradition, by M. Stanton Evans, bears on the subject of the effect of the Catholic Church on freedom. It does so in such a way as to make this product of Protestant upbringing better appreciate that his teachers weren't exactly at pains to bring both sides of the Protestant-Catholic issue to the table.

At this point in history Christians are not well advised to split hairs on theological purity while the militant "governmentists," as I like to call them, work to divide and conquer any who would hold that that the "wall of seperation" of which Jefferson wrote (in a cordial response to a cordial letter from an association of Baptists) protects the government from Christian influence.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

At this point in history Christians are not well advised to split hairs on theological purity while the militant "governmentists," as I like to call them, work to divide and conquer any who would hold that that the "wall of seperation" of which Jefferson wrote (in a cordial response to a cordial letter from an association of Baptists) protects the church but does not"protect" the government from influence of Christian voters.

[royalcello]

I've spent plenty of time reading about history and I still maintain that monarchy is the best form of government.

[royalcello]

Thanks. Kjvail is in charge of the "Crown Crew" ping list.

Part of the problem is that since Vatican II the Church has effectively embraced modern democracy by abandoning the monarchical trappings of the papacy and severing its traditional ties with European monarchism. Cardinal Ratzinger himself said that Vatican II was the Church's attempt to "come to terms with the new era inaugurated in 1789."

Now, it sounds like the Pope is starting to sense that maybe this new era isn't so great. But he and his immediate predecessors cannot entirely escape responsibility for the lamentable state of contemporary Europe. The beatification of Emperor Karl I was a marvelous step in the right direction. But Rome will need to firmly repudiate the evil ideals of 1789 before she is capable of leading Europe away from godlessness.

[Thorin]

>>>>>We have less freedom in the modern secular democracy than we had under many autoritarian regimes of old.

You are exactly right.

[kjvail]

Glory of Throne and Altar ping for the "Crown Crew"

FReepmail me to get on of off this list

[kjvail]

I am looking forward to reading this book, English edition is due out in a few months (currently only available in Italian)

[Pyro7480]

Please add me to your ping list.

[rmmcdaniell]

Both are attacking democracy for the same reasons. They are not opposed to the shortcomings of democracy (e.g. the way in which failed democracies degenerate into mob rule), but rather are opposed to its virtues (e.g. the way in which successful democracies develop a live-and-let-live ethos in which all civilized peaceful people can make a place for themselves).

Exactly. Before freepers start praising the pope for this book realize that he is basically whining that the mob doesn't impose morals in the same way it imposes socialist economic policies. The pope is not advocating the kind of limited government FR was established to promote. He says modern democracies are masquerading as tyrannies, but his failure to acknowledge that all democracies are totalitarian make his opinions naïve at best.

[Pyro7480]

Ndkos, kjvail is the "Crown Crew" ping contact.

[ndkos]

Thanks for the notice, I just sent him a Freepmail.

[johnb838]

separation of Church and State is an "Error"...

Separation of C & S IS an error. There is nothing about it in our Constitution and it is wholly a fiction of the left, as represented in the early years by the French Revolution-supporting Jefferson.