NYT: Camden's Streets Go From Mean to America's Most Dangerous City, Liberalism's Showcase

New York Times ^ | December 29, 2004 | JEFFREY GETTLEMAN

[Coleus]

[RinaseaofDs]

Agree.

[freepatriot32]

Gee im going to go out on a limb here and say camden new jersey has very very strict draconian gun controls laws. am I right or am I right?If you end the war on drugs and the war on the 2cd amendment and pass a actual death penalty law where the convict wont die of old age before his exacution then crime everywhere will drop to record low levels in a matter of weeks but then the corrupt cops and feds and other hangers on wont get thier second income and unchecked power and immunity to all felonys that they all currently enjoy.

[frgoff]

Ride with a drug enforcement cop. I've worked with youth on drugs. And nothing infuriates me more than some ignorant ass of a fool who thinks legalizing it is a good idea. These things are poison. They destroy the soul. They turn people into mindless animals, willing to do anything for that next hit, even kill.

If you think legalizing drugs will stop the killing by dealers, then you are the biggest fool of all. Dealers don't kill because drugs are illegal, they kill to eliminate competition in the market.

[AppyPappy]

We will never legalize drugs. What foolish drug company would manufacture a product infinitely more dangerous than cigarettes? The lawyers would be circling every factory. This whole "war on drugs" mantra from the libertarians is just a red herring.

[coloradan]

If you think legalizing drugs will stop the killing by dealers, then you are the biggest fool of all. Dealers don't kill because drugs are illegal, they kill to eliminate competition in the market.

And where is the market if the drugs become legal? Is a homeboy going to compete with Walgreens?

You call me an ignorant ass of a fool, but everything you say can be said and has been said of alcohol, right down to the gangsters machine-gunning speakeasies of their competition. If you had been alive then, you would be telling me sanctimoniously to ride along with some revenue agents, busting illegal moonshine operations, getting shot at, and do I still think that horrible drink should be made legal? Now, alcohol is legal and those crimes of violence are essentially gone. We tried prohibition once, and admitted it was a big mistake. We're trying it again. It's still a big mistake, and people like yourselves cannot distinguish between the problems of drugs, and problems of prohibition.

Incidentally, the first prohibition got us the BATF, the first federal gun control laws (NFA'34), it firmly established the Mafia in America, and got the Kennedy family into politics, thanks to corruption. The Drug War is bringing many more evils than that into every one else's lives.

[frgoff]

---
but everything you say can be said and has been said of alcohol,
---

You ever see someone crawl through broken glass for a shot of bourbon? To put it in terms even a fool libertarian can understand: When demand for a product is so high people will KILL to get it, then others will kill to sell it to them.

Here's what will happen if you legalize drugs: Use will skyrocket. Unemployment will skyrocket. Crime will skyrocket.

And your comments on Alcohol are urban legend. Fewer people died during prohibition than after. Have you looked lately at the number of people killed by drunk drivers in this country? Tell me again that ending prohibition reduced deaths.

So, is it morally superior to legalize a product that will fill your morgues with victims but might reduce high-visibility murders?

Oh, right. The Libertarian mindset: I can do whatever the hell I want and don't you try to stop me, and if someone else dies, well, then they should just hurry up and do it and decrease the surplus population.

The push to legalize drugs is raw, naked evil at work.

[coloradan]

You ever see someone crawl through broken glass for a shot of bourbon?

No, I wasn't alive in the '20s. Today, they don't have to, because there are liquor stores where such people can buy alcohol (after panhandling some quarters). I have, however, seen people step outside in -20 F weather to catch a smoke during the peak of flu season, because the establishment was banned from allowing smoking indoors.

To put it in terms even a fool libertarian can understand: When demand for a product is so high people will KILL to get it, then others will kill to sell it to them.

Your sense of reason has apparently been warped by rage, or something, so I'll spell it out for you: if it were legal, the addict is free to buy it at a "drug" store, so those who would kill to sell it won't have many customers.

Here's what will happen if you legalize drugs: Use will skyrocket. Unemployment will skyrocket. Crime will skyrocket.

Um, that's what you have in Camden today, with your immoral war being fought.

And your comments on Alcohol are urban legend. Fewer people died during prohibition than after.

With respect to homicides, you are either mistaken or lying.

Source: http://eh.net/encyclopedia/?article=miron.prohibition.alcohol

Note that the homicide rates peak with law enforcement dollars both towards the end of the Prohibition, and rise again as the War On (some) Drugs begins in earnest. Maybe it's just coincidence - but, maybe it's not. In any case your assertion is disproven, with respect to homicides. Does this fact change your worldview whatsoever?

Have you looked lately at the number of people killed by drunk drivers in this country? Tell me again that ending prohibition reduced deaths.

Drunk driving deaths are a separate issue, and anyway drunk driving is still illegal. Furthermore, vehicular homicide is still reflected in the overall homicide rate. (In order to make the case you intended to make, DD would have to be decriminalized, which I am not arguing. That's called a straw man argument on your part.)

So, is it morally superior to legalize a product that will fill your morgues with victims but might reduce high-visibility murders?

Having seen the data, let's turn the question around: Is it morally superior to keep a prohibition in place, when there are not one but two cases in which the imposition of a prohibition has increased the homicide rate? (Who is the one who wants to decrease the surplus population, re: your argument just below?)

Oh, right. The Libertarian mindset: I can do whatever the hell I want and don't you try to stop me, and if someone else dies, well, then they should just hurry up and do it and decrease the surplus population.

Another straw man argument. Used by dishonest people when honest arguments don't work or can't be found.

The push to legalize drugs is raw, naked evil at work.

On the contrary, the War On (some) Drugs is.

[coloradan]

You do know, of course, that in NYC guns are basically illegal, and that they have undercover cops trying to bust illegal gun dealers, and that they set up sting buys and do no-knock raids, etc, and that these cops are sometimes shot dead, etc ... and that gun grabbers abound who write things like "I've worked with youth on guns. And nothing infuriates me more than some ignorant ass of a fool who thinks legalizing guns is a good idea. These things are evil. They destroy neighborhoods. They turn people into killers, willing to shoot anyone at the drop of a hat. Do you want the streets running with blood?" Sound familiar? It's right out of a Brady Campaign press release. Or, maybe it's your own post, very very slightly reworded.

And I'm just this ignorant ass of a fool libertarian who can point to places like Colorado with the "Make my day" law, or Vermont and Alaska where you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and these promised evils just simply don't come to pass (except at gun-free schools like Columbine). Still there are plenty of people who are calling on the prohibition of guns to expand and become complete, and they cite places where guns are already illegal, but which are either criminal hellholes (e.g. Washington D.C.) or sites of famous massacres (e.g. Columbine H.S.) to make their case.

[coloradan]

Footnote #8 of my cited source for the graphs:

8. Miron and Zwiebel (1991) show that deaths due to alcoholism, which probably included deaths from overdoses or accidental poisonings, soared during Prohibition relative to other proxies.

[Know your rights]

And when the junkie doesn't have the money for his fix because he can't hold down a job?

The lower the price, the less the crime; and the price might be so low that panhandling and can-collecting cover it, as appears to be the case with the legal addictive drug alcohol.

[Know your rights]

You ever see someone crawl through broken glass for a shot of bourbon?

My uncle drank Listerine for the alcohol content when he couldn't get booze.

[Polyxene]

"80% of births are to unwed mothers." Thanks, LBJ, for creating the "Great Society." It has given us more than you ever thought it would! (sarcasm off)

[First_Salute]

JasonC:

There are jobs wherever there is justice, and there is no justice here.

A major point, said better than I have been able to produce.

[coloradan]

Seems you know what a straw man argument is, but you use them against me anyway. Why is that?

And in light of the graphs I posted, have you changed your position any at all? (Or, are you in the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" stage, like liberals are with global warming and the benefits of gun control?)

[Mo1]

Gee .. pulled this one out of the blue didn't ya

[spleon2206]

I’ve lived less than 5 miles away from Camden my whole life in Haddon Twp. I am near Cherry Hill, Haddonfield, Collingswood - all very nice, humble, small towns... New Jersey suburbs. All these towns are located right outside the warzones of Camden, seperated by a very small thoroughway but somehow, remain quiet, family-oriented towns. Towns where everyone knows each other and their families, have kids that play on the local soccer team, etc... Anyone living in these towns in my generation have been told to stay away from Camden and for good reason. All you have to do is look at the numbers to realize just how bad it is. One thing I think is crazy is how Rt. 130 seperates the violence, madness, killing, drug dealing.... from these very idealistic towns. One thing is for sure, they do a great job keeping that shit out of my town. You cross over Rt. 130 into a different world. Also, working at a local hotel, I can’t tell you how many people come in at the point of tears because they got lost in Camden on the way to our hotel.