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Tough Assignment: Teaching Evolution To Fundamentalists
Ft. Wayne Journal Gazette ^ | 03 December 2004 | SHARON BEGLEY

Posted on 12/18/2004 5:56:30 PM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: WildTurkey
The existence of God and the theory of evolution are not mutually contradictory. Protestants in the liberal, neo-orthodox, and neo-evangelical camps and Catholics in the pro-Vatican II and radical camps believe either in the evolutionary process guided by God or in an open theism position that presumes that God may have stayed out of certain processes, such as the development of life. There are no doubt Jews, Unitarians, Muslims, Buddhists, et. al., who hold parallel position within the context of their respective faiths.

There is also the case of old earth creationists, who generally believe in the Big Bang theory but reject the theory of macroevolution of life forms. Hugh Ross would be an advocate of such a position.

As for young earth creationists, it is a distortion to state that they disbelieve the entire base of scientific knowledge. Most have no problem with most of the observations and hypotheses of modern science. But in specific areas, such as macroevolution and the age of the universe, they reject the conclusions of mainstream science because it contradicts the propositions of Scripture: that the universe is of limited age and that the species of life were created by fiat. Granted, young earth creationists have a lot of explaining to do in the area of the physical sciences. However, the fact that they hold a certain body of statements founded in the Bible, to be truer than the theories and laws of scientists does not make them anti-science. Would we say that policemen are anti-gun just because they oppose the use of guns by criminals?

There is no just or reasonable cause to presume that one set of presuppositions are superior to another based on whether or not a particular theory is accepted or rejected.

621 posted on 12/20/2004 3:23:09 PM PST by Wallace T.
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To: Wallace T.
The conclusion that a hot stove will burn an unprotected hand contradicts no proposition of conservative Christianity or any other faith.

Actually there are entire sects of Christianity with millions of followers that believe diseases are not caused by germs, at least not in any sense that would indicate prevention or treatement based on germ theory.

622 posted on 12/20/2004 3:23:18 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: D Edmund Joaquin

What precisely is a species?


623 posted on 12/20/2004 3:23:57 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: js1138
Havoc's response was basically, no problem. He meets that standard. I don't think lurkers will have any trouble understanding that.

No havoc did not respond in that fashion. Havoc rejected your premise and noted that Science is often Wrong.. which flew right past you because you'd rather not dwell on the obvious. How often have we turned on the news to find out that what caused cancer yesterday is good for us today and cancer causing again tomorrow. How many times have we heard the reports of some new recommendation to diet that is later shown to be hazerdous to our health. O-rings on the shuttle costing lives. Foam in another instant (oh gee, we didn't realize the impact of a bunch of foam impacting a wing at high speeds.. Doh. One by one I can tick down my arm a list a mile long of where science has been consistantly and at this point predictably wrong. We all stopped listening to science's latest opinion of what's good for us - cause bottom line is, they're more clueless than we are as everyday human beings - belief systems aside. I can further tick down another list as long as my arm of people who proved scientific theories who for all intents and purposes may as well have done so on another planet for all the naysaying and badmouthing they recieved at the hands of the scientific community. All that said, the conclusion is opposite of your premise. One need not be smarter than anyone else in the community. All they need is dedication to task and method - something the community has largely lost. Einstein would have been an insignificant grease spot were it not for escaping the Germans. He did what most thought impossible and left most of the community scratching their heads trying to figure out what he said. That level of intelligence isn't common. That's the fun of science to some extent - watching the naysayers gain in volume with their rebukes right up till their butts are handed to them by the guy too stupid to be as smart as all of them. You might need a few history classes for some perspective on things.

624 posted on 12/20/2004 3:24:04 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: js1138

Why do they go extinct?


625 posted on 12/20/2004 3:24:27 PM PST by D Edmund Joaquin (Karenga says Kwanzaa is an "oppositional alternative" to Christianity - which he calls "spookism")
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To: Havoc

OOOh, ooh, I know! Money?


626 posted on 12/20/2004 3:25:29 PM PST by D Edmund Joaquin (Karenga says Kwanzaa is an "oppositional alternative" to Christianity - which he calls "spookism")
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To: Dataman
ALL of physics? All of chemistry?

I followed up with a list of specific questions, to which havoc has not responded. Give it a go if you like, post #565.

627 posted on 12/20/2004 3:26:05 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: Dataman

You've got it. When he can't answer, I must then detail the volumes of everything written in the system since adam and yay or nay it one by one - an utter absurdity that he's well aware of. And basically a duck and run move relying on rhetoric rather than evidence or science. Begging the question in the largest possible way IMO. Tawdry, isn't it lol


628 posted on 12/20/2004 3:27:01 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: D Edmund Joaquin

Why not? What precisely is the problem?


629 posted on 12/20/2004 3:27:49 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: js1138; Dataman

Then your eyes are as bad as your responses. Post 568


630 posted on 12/20/2004 3:29:03 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: Havoc
Here are my questions from #565. You could try to be specific about this by answering a few questions:

  1. How old is the earth, and in what way is the scientific estimate "not scientific"?
  2. Where did the water for the global flood come from and where did it go, and how are the scientific calculations on this subject "not scientific"?
  3. What exactly is a species, and how is science wrong in defining species?
  4. What is the biological barrier preventing variation from becoming speciation, and exactly how does this barrier function?
  5. Does selection occur ever? Has it been observed? If so, where does the information come from that makes selection work?
  6. How does the growth of a fertilized egg occur within the confines of the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

631 posted on 12/20/2004 3:30:18 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: js1138; Dr. Eckleburg

Simple. Why don't they get a clue, after all, that's apparently what evolution (Evolution, what's it good for?...Elaine Bennis) is all about. Why doesn't the spotted owl evolve into an eagle or better yet, a flying monkey and get the heck out of the redwoods? Surely it must notice that the tree isn't there anymore


632 posted on 12/20/2004 3:31:57 PM PST by D Edmund Joaquin (Karenga says Kwanzaa is an "oppositional alternative" to Christianity - which he calls "spookism")
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To: js1138

And you might read 568 where I answered, for the second or thrid time depending on perspective.


633 posted on 12/20/2004 3:32:24 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: Havoc
Fom #568

No big leap, The speed of light from my understanding has been slowed to 1mph in the lab recently. That pretty much destroys much of science's guessing about distance to stars.

:)

634 posted on 12/20/2004 3:37:01 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: js1138

Ah, you liked that one did you. I'm sure somebody here is ouching pretty bad from it.. and probably cursing under their breath as no one has dared touch it till you did.


635 posted on 12/20/2004 3:38:38 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: Havoc

OK, try the questions in #631.


636 posted on 12/20/2004 3:39:08 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: js1138
Then of course, Seinfeld evolved ito George's show which died, so Elaine was right
637 posted on 12/20/2004 3:39:25 PM PST by D Edmund Joaquin (Karenga says Kwanzaa is an "oppositional alternative" to Christianity - which he calls "spookism")
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To: Fester Chugabrew

"Professor Collins accepts the miracle of the creation of physical laws. Creation of time and light are not much different. The miraculous nature of it all wears off when one is born into it."

JFK_Lib - Why would it wear off? Jadedness?


638 posted on 12/20/2004 3:40:05 PM PST by JFK_Lib
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To: Havoc; Physicist; RadioAstronomer

I'm sure Physicst and Radio Astronomer are quaking in their boots from the blow you have struck. Are you of the opinion that the speed of light has been modified in the laboratory?


639 posted on 12/20/2004 3:41:46 PM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: general_re
...neither God nor the universe are affected in the slightest bit by your opinion or your politics or your metaphysics or your worldview.

Agreed. Nor do yours or anyone else's opinion, etc., affect God or the universe.

As for "equal time in the schools," that is your problem, not mine. Education should be handled entirely in the private sector. But I digress.

You also err when it can be inferred that you believe that macroevolution is physical, observable reality. Many persons have observed caterpillars metamorphizing into butterflies. No one has observed a land mammal evolving into a whale. There is evidence that would support such a theory in the fossil record and even in DNA analysis, but there are also some problems with the theory, as the intelligent design advocates have pointed out. Scientific consensus changes over the years. Newtonian physics was the standard until the late 19th Century; since that time, certain propositions of that school have been refuted and are no longer accepted. Additionally, no one entirely "understands" God or the universe: conservative Christian or otherwise. This means you as well.

The fact that I accept the propositions of the Bible, in their historical and grammatical context and in light of authorial intent, as the ultimate truth has no bearing on my concept of God or the physical universe. I am sorry if your presuppositions give you consternation, however.

640 posted on 12/20/2004 3:47:15 PM PST by Wallace T.
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