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GOP Discusses National Sales Tax
FOX ^ | Dec 1, 2004

Posted on 12/01/2004 8:25:22 AM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection

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To: Your Nightmare

My source was Dr. Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University

"11 For example, see Aaron and Gale (1996) and Gale (1999)"

Of the liberal think tank, Brookings Institute.

Gale has a few problems with how he calculates things for his Brookings hit pieces.

Gale rebuttals, by Argus Group, Burton & Mastomarko:
Comments on William Gale’s paper entitled “An Evaluation of a National Sales Tax”, February 17, 1998 and “Don’t Buy the Sales Tax” (Brookings Policy Brief no. 31)

Like you, Gale likes to create strawmen to shoot down.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
--John Adams

621 posted on 12/04/2004 7:52:25 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: Your Nightmare
but the hooker is not paying income tax on the money received from the john.
Under the current system, the john's money is already taxed from the witholding.
But the money he gives the hooker, will not be taxed as income to the hooker or her pimp.
Under NRST, the money the john pays for her services is not taxed, but when the hooker buys a meal, or make-up or condoms, that income will be taxed.
622 posted on 12/04/2004 9:02:41 AM PST by concretebob (Power perceived, is power achieved)
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To: ancient_geezer
Say what you want. Jorgenson was the source of the quote. The paper you incessantly quote is co-authored by Peter Wilcoxen, a Senior Fellow at the same Brookings Institute.

These are the guys Jorgenson is quoting and publishing with and you are quoting him!?!? You liberal.
623 posted on 12/04/2004 10:07:49 AM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: ancient_geezer
You may have "thought" anything. It is obvious with that statement when measured against reality that prices are composed of more than just taxes or even the additional cost burdens imposed by them that you don't "think", you demogogue.
But aren't they 22% of prices?
624 posted on 12/04/2004 10:08:37 AM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection

A national sales tax would kill small businesses (like mine) at a 23 cent per dollar rate.


625 posted on 12/04/2004 10:10:27 AM PST by BoBToMatoE
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To: Bean Counter

If the Corporate Income Tax is eliminated, the price of goods will drop concomitantly through competitive pricing.

I had always understood that a NatRetailSalesTax program will eliminate Corporate (C-) tax. S- tax is not germane, right?


626 posted on 12/04/2004 10:29:58 AM PST by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Your Nightmare

But aren't they 22% of prices?

Repealing the income/payroll tax system, removes sufficient overhead burdens from the economy and business to result in a decline of 22% in prices.

The burdens imposed and supression of the economy by the current tax system is much greater than the actual revenues that government manages to sqeeze out of industry.

But then you always have been the one to focus on the least part, unfortunately for your misdirections the whole is the sum of all it's parts.

627 posted on 12/04/2004 10:36:02 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: BoBToMatoE
A national sales tax would kill small businesses (like mine) at a 23 cent per dollar rate.

No way! Please read the following!

Home

Impact of the FairTax(SM) on Small Business

The present tax system has adverse impact on small businesses. Replacing the federal income tax, the payroll tax, and the estate and gift tax with a single rate, simple national retail sales tax on the retail sale of all goods and services would dramatically improve the economic environment for small businesses. It would reduce compliance costs and tax burdens and improve bottom line profits.

Under the FairTax, small businesses would enjoy a zero tax rate. Corporations, subchapter S corporations, partnerships, limited liability companies, and sole proprietorships would pay no tax on their income. Both the employee and employer share of payroll taxes, the self-employment tax rate and the estate and gift tax would be abolished.

Compliance costs are a much more substantial economic drag on small business than they are for larger businesses. According to the Tax Foundation, small businesses spend $724 to comply with the income tax for every $100 they pay in tax. More than 90 percent of all U.S. corporations have assets of $1 million or less and, therefore, bear tremendous relative compliance burdens. In fact, small corporations bear a compliance cost burden about 27 times greater than the largest U.S. corporations, those with $10 billion or more in assets.[1]

A small business today must use tax accounting rules (which are different than generally accepted accounting principles) to keep track of: income, inventories, various types of expenses (some deductible, some partially deductible, some not currently deductible and some never deductible), depreciation (which must be recorded in at least two ways for regular and alternative minimum tax purposes), tax basis for assets sold, various pension and deferred compensation rules (including participation, top-heavy and non-discrimination rules), various employee benefits rules, and so on. The small business must also keep track of payroll taxes, including social security, medicare and unemployment taxes as well as file a plethora of information returns on its payments.

Small business compliance costs would drop dramatically under the FairTax because the only question relevant for sales tax purposes is "How much did you sell to consumers?" Period. Businesses that sell to other businesses would have virtually no compliance costs since intermediate business-to-business sales are not taxed under the FairTax plan. In addition, under the plan, retail businesses would receive an administration fee that would allow them to keep a portion of the sales tax they collect to compensate them for collection costs. The Tax Foundation estimates that overall compliance costs will fall by more than 90 percent.[2]

Small businesses are found in service, retailing, and other labor-intensive industries. Both complying with and paying the payroll tax and the income tax impose a major burden on these small businesses. Moreover, the service sector and the retailing sector typically have much higher effective income tax rates than other businesses.

Each year, many small businesses and farms must be sold out of the family to pay estate and gift taxes when the founding generation dies. After a lifetime of hard work and risk-taking, the estate and gift tax deprive the small business owner or family farmer of the right to pass his or her life's work on from father and mother to son or daughter. The estate tax punishes those that save and work hard to build an enterprise. In contrast, those that deplete their estate by heavy spending in their retirement years pay little or no estate tax.

Under the FairTax plan, the estate and gift tax will be repealed. The need for small businesses and farmers to engage in expensive estate planning involving attorneys, complex estate freeze transactions and expensive life insurance plans in anticipation of future estate and gift tax liability would disappear.[3] Heirs would no longer need to sell the business or farm out of the family or borrow heavily, putting the business at risk, to pay the estate tax.

Perhaps as important as these factors, is the impact that the FairTax would have on economic growth. Small businesses thrive in a healthy, growing economy but because of inadequate capitalization and lack of access to sufficient bank credit, they have much more difficulty in a stagnant or shrinking economy. The FairTax would cause the economy to grow and become much more dynamic. In a recent paper, Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University states that, "the revenue neutral substitution of the FairTax for existing taxes would have an immediate and powerful impact on the level of economic activity. GDP would increase by almost 10.5 percent in the first year."[4] Laurence Kotlikoff of Boston University found that implementation of the proposed tax reform plan "raises the economy's capital stock by 42 percent, its labor supply by 4 percent, its output by 12 percent, and its real wage rate by 8 percent. It also lowers real interest rates by more than one quarter."[5]


[1] "Federal Tax Compliance Costs Climb to $225," Tax Features, Tax Foundation, March 1996, p. 3.

[2] Ibid.

[3] William W. Beach, "The Case for Repealing the Estate Tax," The Heritage Foundation, August 21, 1996, estimates using both the Washington University Macro Model and the U.S. Macro Model of Wharton Econometric Forecasting that repeal of the estate and gift tax would increase Gross Domestic Product by $11 billion per year, create 145,000 new jobs, increase personal income by $8 billion per year and increase federal revenues marginally.

[4] Dale W. Jorgenson, "The Economic Impact of the National Retail Sales Tax," unpublished report to Americans for FairTaxation, November 25, 1996.

[5] Laurence J. Kotlikoff, "Replacing the U.S. Federal Tax System with a Retail Sales Tax – Macroeconomic and Distributional Impacts," unpublished report to Americans for Fair Taxation, December 1996.

 


628 posted on 12/04/2004 10:56:46 AM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: Bigun
Right -- that's one of the great benefits to going to a national retail sales tax is that it eliminates so much of the hassle for small businesses. If you aren't involved in retail or import/export, your business effectively has nothing to do with the tax system. If you are involved in retail, then you merely have to send off 23% of your gross retail sales to the government. The hassles of paying people disappear. The tax distinctions in a S-corp and a C-corp disappear.

It's a great win, even if I think we will find some problems with the specific Fair Tax proposal -- as long we can get rid of the income tax and go to only a sales tax, I think we can fix the sales tax's problems as we show empirically that they do or don't exist.

629 posted on 12/04/2004 11:23:05 AM PST by snowsislander
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To: Your Nightmare

These are the guys Jorgenson is quoting and publishing with and you are quoting him!?!? You liberal.

Jorgenson quotes & publishes with many in the field of economics for many different groups. Sorry your blandishment is of little value.

I quote the results of Jorgenson's '97 equilibrium models which are not the subject of ideology, merely of application of NIPA data to a well understood analysis methodology.

Interesting isn't it that Liberals are against the NRST, and are so lacking in support of HR25 [==> Co-Sponsors], being the dominant source of the political hits and Attacks Misrepresenting FairTax - National Retail Sales Tax today.

Indeed it is especially interesting considering Jorgenson's '97 models, designed when the NRST was not a significant issue or even much of a bump on the radar to them, shows the NRST to be a substantive improvement over the income/payroll tax system.

When Brookings folks conjure up afterthought to counter the Fair Tax, Flat Taxes and whatever tax but the income tax, conservatives should take note. Especially when prior study results for their own groups make it clear that virtually every other tax system imaginable is economically better than our current federal system.

Of course liberal support of the income tax system has little to do with economics or freedom of the citizen, and much more to do with the capacity of the income tax system for contol. and manipulation of the electorate:

 

"As a matter of fact, what the income tax does — and this is the debate that I think we always try to get into in order to let you and him fight, see — and the people of this country are led down a path where the actual control of their resources, which in the end is the control over their will, is handed off to the government."

. . .

"The government then manipulates that will in order to destroy the freedom of our electoral system through the income tax structure, and we call the resulting slavery a free system."

"In point of fact, it is not as the founders understood, and the only way to restore real freedom is to give people back control over the income that they earn so that they won‘t, at the voting booth and in other phony issues, be subject to that manipulation."

- KEYES TRANSCRIPT (01/28/02)


630 posted on 12/04/2004 11:23:57 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
I quote the results of Jorgenson's '97 equilibrium models which are not the subject of ideology, merely of application of NIPA data to a well understood analysis methodology.
Really? Jorgenson's and Wilcoxen's model was created to show how the world could be saved from global warming by taxing energy. Sounds pretty ideological (and liberal) to me.
631 posted on 12/04/2004 12:01:43 PM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: Your Nightmare

Really? Jorgenson's and Wilcoxen's model was created to show how the world could be saved from global warming by taxing energy. Sounds pretty ideological (and liberal) to me.

Numerical analysis and mathmatics is neither liberal or conservative, it simply is.

A hammer however it is employed is still a hammer, even when employed to evaluate environmental regulation on an economy or gasp tax systems for the Joint Committee on Taxation:

 

http://wilcoxen.cp.maxwell.syr.edu/papers/jct.pdf

The Effects Fundamental Tax Reform and the
Feasibility of Dynamic Revenue Estimation

by Jorgenson & Wilcoxen

Prepared for the Joint Committee on Taxation’s
Symposium on Modeling the Macroeconomic Consequences of Tax Policy
January 1997

I. An Overview of the Model

Our results are based on simulations of U.S. economic growth under alternative tax policies constructed using an intertemporal equilibrium model of the U.S. economy.

The model is an extension of our earlier work on environmental regulation and has been continuously revised and updated since it was first published in 1990.

The version used for these simulations 1 incorporates the detailed representation of the U.S. tax structure presented by Jorgenson and Yun (1991). We present a detailed description of the model and summarize a variety of applications in Jorgenson and Wilcoxen (1993); in this section we summarize the key features of the model influencing our analysis of tax reform.


1 Jorgenson and Wilcoxen (1990).

 

Or any one else.

 

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/jorgenson/papers/baker.pdf

 THE ECONOMIC IMPACT
OF
FUNDAMENTAL TAX REFORM

By Jorgenson & Wilcoxen

 This paper was prepared for presentation at the
Baker Institute Conference
on Tax Policy Reform
Rice University
Houston, Texas
November 6, 1998

We conclude that intertemporal general equilibrium modeling provides a very worthwhile addition to methodologies for analyzing the economic impact of tax reforms. The neo-classical theory of economic growth is essential for understanding the dynamic mechanisms that underlie long-term and intermediate-term impacts. The econometric implementation of this theory is critical for understanding the changes in economic behavior that would result from tax reforms. The wealth of historical experience, interpreted within an inter-temporal framework, provides valuable guidance in the formulation of tax policy.

 

In point of fact, the application of Jorgenson's equilibrium model to evaluate policy of all kinds as it's intended purpose.

That it happens be of use to evalute a carbon tax' or effect on the economy for those interested in such is not any more suprising than has been its use in evaluating the Flat Tax, unified income taxes, VATs, NRST or any othe scheme, is hardly unusual or ideological in any sense of the word.

632 posted on 12/04/2004 1:28:38 PM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer

Boortz???? Izzat YOU???


633 posted on 12/05/2004 6:33:07 PM PST by The Drowning Witch (Sono La Voce della Nazione Selvaggia)
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To: The Drowning Witch

Nahhh! I don't spell as well as Boortz. LOL


634 posted on 12/05/2004 6:42:26 PM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer

At least you have his wit.


635 posted on 12/05/2004 6:56:54 PM PST by The Drowning Witch (Sono La Voce della Nazione Selvaggia)
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