Posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:11 PM PST by betty boop
We are not looking downward to constituent continuums of inorganic corpuscles, fields or geometry. We are not looking backward in time as to how such life came to be. We are not looking forward in time as to how it might be simulated.
The principles of natural life are on the table to the extent they are within the reach of our minds.
The entire inquiry of abiogenesis is erased from our blackboard because it is a waste of time. IOW, many here have already said the result would be "idle speculation" on the grounds of the fallacy of quantizing the continuum. So why bother?
The "snake/lizard and continuum of the geologic record" item is quite interesting in that it explores the fallacy of quantizing the continuum and the theory of evolution. But we are trying to keep any discussions of evolution off this thread because they tend to become confrontational. This thread, on the other hand, is characterized by mutual respect and a sincere desire to understand one another and the questions before us.
Thank you for all of your posts which ever encourage us to look!
Oh, my goodness - how rude of me! As I was going through some of my older pings, I just now realized that I forgot to follow up on your response here in # 525 to my questions. I don't have time to get to it right now, but wanted to let you know that I will hopefully get the time to make my reply to your post later on today.
I would call it clarification rather than obfusction. Your (and Betty's)examples of live vs dead have been rigged to make the question seem absurd, but the question isn't absurd.
You have presented us with two quite different criteria for distinguishing life from non-life. One is abstract and relies on structure and behavior; the other depends on the history of the object (is it natural?).
What would be the status of an entity that looks and behaves like a bacteria, but which is manufactured from "non-living" materials and which utilizes amino-acids not found in "natural" living things?
What would be that status of an albatros whose heart hs not beaten in the last 30 seconds?
At least as early as Pearson it became a question for science. Bauer addressed the question through scientific observations. Pattee asked the same question from the aspect of physics and noted the lack of interest by biologists. Schneider's work in molecular biology for cancer research points to a clear distinction based on Shannon-Weaver.
In humans, a myocardial infarction will result in cell death (no more cellular successful communications) in certain physical areas of the heart. If successful communications within the molecular machinery can continue at the reduced rate, the machinery will eventually route blood flow around the dead cells and continue functioning, i.e. successfully communicating, reduction of uncertainty in the receiver, in molecular machines going from a before state to an after state.
It's when the communication ceases in the entire molecular machinery, that it may (if the function of the molecular machine is vital) spread to other molecular machinery and death of the globally governing organism, the man, ensues. IOW, the body of the man reaches the point where none of the vital molecular machinery communcates.
The definition of what is "vital" molecular machinery determines the legal and clinical definition of "death". Currently I believe the definition hinges on the heart, i.e. a person can be brain dead and nevertheless clinically alive because the heart continues with assistance of a respirator simulating the machinery of the brain for that particular molecular machinery, i.e. forcing air into/out of the lungs rather than communicating to the lungs to expand/contract.
I'm curious what it would take o have something that was not made from existing natural life. Are you referring to the blueprint? Is anything that copies an existing structure automatical natural? Are you referring to the manufacturing machinery?
What specifically is it that makes something natural?
I am not trying to hijack the thread or divert it into a ditch. I was pinged to it at a point where a question that is interesting to me was being posed.
It seems to me that to have a conversation you need to agree on basic torms, or at least pause while those definitions are being considered. I am not aware of any universally accepted definition of life. I would say that your proposed definitions are valuable subsets of such a definition, but are not exhaustive. In particular, they fail to distinguish between natural and synthetic in cases where the history is unknown. They also fail to distinguish hard cases, such as those presented by prions, viruses, and bacterial spores.
There is no particular reason to have an elaborate and abstract definition of life to distinguish complex living organisms from dead tissue. The need for a definition arises in hard cases, such as those presented by the prospect of laboratory biogenesis, or the prospect of cybernetic intlligence. A definition must necessarily be free of historical context, because history makes the definition unnecessary.
In your next post, you said:
If it would help to make the posters more comfortable with the subject, perhaps we could separate the issue of natural life which is involuntary - i.e. not the result of discernible intent other than the indirect desire for sex - from natural life which results from intention - i.e. God as Creator, collective consciousness of the universe, scientists making polio viruses, altering DNA, substituting molecular machinery, etc.
IOW, intention could be raised as subject number "next" after we first answer: "in the natural world, what is life?" unless of course one believes there can be no life without intent.
Prions, viruses and bacterial spores are metabolically stable. At least they do not metabolize.
Am I wrong about this?
In any case, the Shannon-Weaver model works well to integrate their life cycle with the host, i.e. as a miscommunication. Metabolism is not a factor in Shannon-Weaver.
The Shannon-Weaver does not concern itself at all with the value of the message itself - only the mathematics of the communication. Whether the message tends to health or mad cow disease - the math is the same.
Is the "aliveness" of a virus intrinsic, or is it alive only in relation to its host?
Regarding spores, I found this:
"Many bacteria form a single spore when their food supply runs low. Most of the water is removed from the spore and metabolism ceases. Spores are so resistant to adverse conditions of dryness and temperature that they may remain viable even after 50 years of dormancy."
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/Eubacteria.html
But once again I must stress that the Shannon-Weaver model is the mathematics of communications and does not address the value of the message at all. So under Shannon-Weaver it doesnt matter that prions are only proteins, that mycoplasmas have no cell walls, that viroids are RNA without a protein coat. They fit within the communication model. The model addresses source, message, encoder, channel, decoder, receiver and noise. Noise can result in a miscommunication of an intended message and therefore, a malfunction (or perhaps improvement) in the molecular machine.
The bottom line to Shannon-Weaver is information, the reduction of uncertainty of the receiver in going from a before state to an after state. It is all about communications and all of these lifeforms are part of the communications (or miscommunications) in molecular machines.
If we were to proceed down the path of questioning whether the lowly virus, prion and viroid are alive then we would be appealing to definitions of life which make cuts based on biochemical boundaries. Such cuts open the door for other types of arguments such as the following:
There are those who see an unbroken continuum between living and nonliving matter. If this is so, the question of life's origin becomes a moot point. Viruses, prions, mycoplasmas, rickettsiae and chlamidiae are offered as examples of organisms that bridge the chasm between living and nonliving. But the differences between living and nonliving matter are in fact so great that this chasm cannot be spanned.
Although viruses and prions are made from biopolymers, they are no more alive than the enzyme additives in some detergents. Viruses are lifeless complexes of proteins and nucleic acids. The biological activity of viruses, including their replication, is completely dependent on the metabolic activity of the infected cell. Prions are unique proteins that alter the structure of certain other proteins. The newly changed proteins in turn acquire prion-type activity, creating a domino effect of protein alteration. This property of prions renders them infectious. For reproduction, prions, like viruses, are wholly dependent on live cells.
Rickettsiae, chlamidiae and mycoplasmas, on the other hand, are among the smallest known living organisms, and are very much alive. The fact that chlamidiae and rickettsiae are obligate intracellular parasites only means that they have serious metabolic deficiencies. A clear distinction between living entities and nonliving substances is essential for a consideration of whether it is possible to go from one state to the other. For this reason we need to descend into the submicroscopic world of matter.
The elemental compositions of living and nonliving matter differ greatly.4 The actual chemical determination of living matter is done on "once-living matter". Before chemists can analyze living matter, they have to take it apart to isolate its individual components, thereby killing it. Thus the actual phenomenon of "life" is not amenable to detailed chemical scrutiny. In the very process of laying hold of isolated "purified" components of living matter, "life" slips out between the chemists' fingers, and what remains is an inert, "lifeless" substance. This is so because living cells are composed of lifeless, nonliving components. The implication is that the difference between life and death is a question of how biomatter is organized. Therefore, it should be possible to reverse the killing of cells by restoring them to their pre-disruption state. Why this has not yet been done in the laboratory will be discussed in the next chapter.
In presenting a case for a tight logical link between analyzing the molecular aspects of life and the creationist paradigm, it is not enough to enumerate the components of living matter. Simply knowing the components of living matter is not enough to account for its biological activity.
Living matter behaves differently than its isolated components. Living cells incorporate selected substances and utilize them either for energy or as building blocks for growth. They also secrete metabolic waste. Living cells grow and divide into daughter cells. Lastly, when cells recognize unfavorable environmental conditions, they make metabolic adjustments to preserve their existence.1 Living matter gives every indication that it "wants" to stay alive. This is a property of the complex network of components in living matter. The whole seems to be more than the sum of its parts.
If we collect all of the ingredients from live cells, lace them in a membrane-enclosed vesicle, we have an inert, "lifeless" assembly of biomatter. This bag may be stored indefinitely in an environment hospitable for life, without the actual emergence of life. If we periodically analyzed the contents of this artificial "cell", we would find little change in its chemical composition. Such an arrangement of matter is called equilibrium.2
If we sampled the composition of life cells growing in a defined laboratory setting, surprisingly, the results would be similar, that is, we would find the chemical composition of live cells quite constant. But instead of the term "equilibrium", we say that matter in live cells is in a "steady state system". The significant difference between the two is the dynamic flux of matter through live cells.
A mechanical illustration of this difference is shown in Figure 3.1. Here, the contents of both vessels remain unchanged over time, but there is constant movement of liquid through vessel A. The flow of molecules through cells is an essential feature of life. (In contrast, the liquid in container B is stagnant.) The movement of water through a compartment, representing the flux of matter through the cell, is an oversimplification of what actually occurs. In reality matter changes as it travels through the cell. The incoming precursors (biomonomers) are simple substances which are gradually built up to successively more complex structures.
However, I do not believe that approach is adequate because it does indeed toss prions, viroids and viruses into the non-living bucket whereas they are the channel (or noise) for mutation (or miscommunications) in living systems.
IOW, excluding them from the model for "what is life v non-life/death" also puts the mechanism for evolution off the table which evidently is the intent of the above article.
Shannon-Weaver, OTOH, does not disturb even the classic model of evolution which I personally find out-of-date, nor does it disturb any of the newer von Neumann based models, nor does it speak yeah or nay to abiogenesis, nor does it preclude either Intelligent Design or Young Earth Creationist. It is ideologically and theologically neutral on top of being elegant.
However, if the consensus here is to go with a biochemical definition - then I'm "game" for trying to nail the characteristics.
js1138 writes: I am not aware of any universally accepted definition of life. I would say that your proposed definitions are valuable subsets of such a definition, but are not exhaustive. In particular, they fail to distinguish between natural and synthetic in cases where the history is unknown. They also fail to distinguish hard cases, such as those presented by prions, viruses, and bacterial spores.
To which you replied: If you have a more exhaustive definition, I'd certainly like to hear it!
You can ditto me on that, A-G!!! I just love it: here we have a thread that is unambiguously devoted to the great subject of being (that is, life), and we have to quibble over whether being is natural, or might it be artificial? Quibbles are also raised about the sufficiency of proposed basic qualities or characteristics of life. One is informed that they are useless because they cant instantly distinguish [and answer] the hard cases.
Good grief! It seems to me (and Im sure many of our friends here will find this controversial) that if the hard AI guys want to build an intelligent machine to the standard of von Neumanns probe then the very first thing they need to do is to figure out how Nature creates a living system.
Actually, I imagine that Bauers observations (rigorously, relentlessly reduced to mathematics) about processes and qualities of living systems shed light even on the hard cases which a person might notice if hes paying attention.
Since I dont read German, Russian, or Hungarian the only languages in which he is published -- Bauers work has been translated to me by a friend. The formulae are the same from text to text I gather ah, mathematics, sublime universal language!!! [More of your unreasonable effectiveness of math here, Alamo-Girl!]
But since we have been chasing down phantasms most recently in particular the by-now famous Fallacy of the Quantized Continuum, as perfect a description of how to arrange an entirely pointless exercise that I can imagine weve wandered far from the original mission.
I think its time for course correction. How shall we proceed? You note that Shannon information theory is not concerned (or even interested, it seems), in the message being communicated. Ultimately the theory drives to the status of the receiver after the message has been communicated. The communication is said to be successful if it produces a reduction of uncertainty in the receiver.
We have many possibilities for further discussion here. The first pertains to the sender: the source of the message being communicated; second, the nature, quality, or meaning of the message (its semiotic quality); third, the physical route by which it is transmitted and received; and fourth, what the receiver does with it so that communication is successful at the receivers end (such that a reduction in uncertainty will occur, facilitating the life interest of the receiver by suitably informing its choices. Not very scientifically put; but I think its an accurate description).
Where shall we go from here?
Oh, a last thought, though a depressing one. Just a little cite from Levins and Lewontin, 1985:
Evolutionists believe organic evolution to be the negation of physical evolution. **
This statement seems twisted to me. Why these guys think biology is so privileged as to be exempt from the physical processes which make it possible is beyond me. FWIW it seems such models look like very poor candidates for the explication of life. Maybe thats why some of our friends now tell us dont ask about life (unless its artificial life, of course, and then it would be O.K .) on the grounds that we humans cant tell life and non-life apart, because life is not something that can be observed in the first place, according to the scientific method (???) .
Well, good night dear Alamo-Girl, and good night all! God bless everyone reading these lines.
** Pace Levins and Lewontin; but to me, this statement is inane, and headed straight for anomie at the speed of light.
I cant imagine, for instance, how it is possible to account for biological evolution without taking the evolution of the physical universe into account. For the biosphere appears to be a subsystem of this larger system. And the universe itself has evolved. Physical science tells us that certain arrangements very needful to the contingent emergence of biological systems occurred in the early universe (living organisms came ever so much later on -- just within the past 4 billion years ago, in a universe whose age is estimated at somewhere around 14 billion).
And so it seems reasonable if a person wishes to speculate about issues of teleology, which well remember is the science of ends, purposes, goals the very word evolution suggests development towards an end, or at the very least to a state higher than that achieved at present. (Higher also suggests the idea of an end in the sense of a rational or objective measure by which something can be adjudged higher or lower.)
I had no idea that Bauer's was a mathematical model. For me, the mathematics is the most objective approach - hence, the appeal of Shannon-Weaver. Perhaps we ought to take a closer look at how Bauer expressed his findings mathematically to see if it is a better model.
Math is indeed unreasonably effective, remarkably so with physics. Therefore, when a mathematical model fits, my confidence soars. Conversely, I would always wonder if a non-mathematical answer could be transportable or applied universally.
Or if you'd rather not take up Bauer, we could resume with Schneider and take an exhaustive tour of the Shannon-Weaver model. A basic chart is at post 341. A summary is at post 491. The key formulae are posted between the two.
I'm wondering what issues are the most important to other posters and Lurkers...
...that if the hard AI guys want to build an intelligent machine to the standard of von Neumanns probe then the very first thing they need to do is to figure out how Nature creates a living system.
Actually, whether or not a living system is artificial or natural should be a side issue. As you point out, one of the things we learn from living systems is how to build such a system. In the course of attempting this, we will learn a lot about what the differences are between mechanisms that are "alive" versus those that are not.
At the simplest level, the differences can be fuzzy. But one of the ways we would recognize something as being "alive" is its ability to at least temporarily work against normal entropy, to repair itself and reproduce itself. Without this ability, if we are building them one by one, and repairing them the same way, its just a machine.
At the higher end, we would look at the kinds of things AI would be interested in, which is the mechanism's ability to rewrite portions of its own software set, which would give it some self-directed autonomy. But even at that, even if it had that ability, it would still be a machine if it could not repair and reproduce itself.
This appears to be another quote mine nugget. I haven't found the quote in context online, but it appears in the usual expected places for out-of-context quotes. Are we back to arguing Second Law stuff?
What do you take this quote to mean?
I'll take a stab at it. It means that living things have, locally, the appearance of violating thermodynamics. I would have to point out that they do this just by living, even if they don't evolve.
I have to say that this thread reminds me of how Chomsky talks about language. He tried to reduce human language to a system of symbols and syntax. He argued that syntax was built into the brain. He opposed the notion that the rules of language were learned. His view is remarkably like the view that life evolves from inner principles without any significant input from selection.
Of course his analysis only works on well formed sentences and completely disregards quirks of language such as connotation.
To get the flavor of how this works, consider a simple statement, "The dog bit John". Where is the information? Suppose there are two listeners or receivers. One has a pet pekinese that is friendly and cuddly. The other receiver is recovering from an attack by a pit bull. Is the information the same for both? Is there any way to know what the message is without having detailed knowledge of the receiver?
I am curious how you can embed information in a system that will evolve properties that are not known in advance. It would seem to me that that the shape of a Wolfram automata cannot be known in advance.
Information is not the value of the message for the very reason you describe. Meaning is derived from context.
Unfortunately, many people have a difficult time separating the two. In common usage, information implies value or meaning. However, in the mathematics of communication --- the "information" in "information theory" --- the value or meaning of a message is not an issue. That is why the Shannon theory is portable to a great many disciplines.
Information is measured as the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver. It is an action, or transaction, not a static "thing".
In the following charts, information is expressed as the structure of the transaction the arrows between the boxes. The relationships are highly mathematical and bear out in observations of molecular machines:
From the Shannon-Weaver Model
This is now known after them as the Shannon-Weaver Model . The Shannon-Weaver Model (1947) proposes that all communication must include six elements:
These six elements are shown graphically in the model The emphasis here is very much on the transmission and reception of information. 'Information' is understood rather differently from the way you and I would normally use the term, as well. This model is often referred to as an 'information model' of communication.
Shannon (as applied to molecular information theory): A Glossary for Molecular Information Theory and the Delila System
molecular machine: The definition given in Channel Capacity of Molecular Machines is:
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