Don't' blame God, Dr Williams -

The Telegraph - UK ^ | September 12, 2004 | Peter Mullen

[secret garden]

Good find and perspective.

[mcg1969]

If He can prevent evil but does not, then he is not good.

As the good Reverend points out, this is the flaw in the argument. He has good reasons for not preventing evil: because doing so would require the elimination of our ability to make decisions independently of Him.

[Overtaxed]

I don't suppose Mary Magdalene's faith went wobbly when she heard of the massacre of the innocents.

Huh? He's got his Mary's mixed up.

[SedVictaCatoni]

A loophole in the Problem of Evil:

- If God is omniscient, then He knows the solution to every problem...
- ...including the Problem of Evil.

Therefore, a God could exist who understood how he himself could exist, even if we could not!

[Semper Paratus]

Archbishop Williams wouldn't have lasted the first few months of WWI.

[SilentServiceCPOWife]

But why does God allow children to suffer? I've struggled with this question for so long and I haven't been able to find an answer. I am agnostic only because of this issue. I really want to believe.

Adults have free will but children don't. They're at the whim of the adults around them. I can't understand how God can see innocent, young children being murdered and not do anything to stop it. They can't defend themselves, so shouldn't God do it for them?

I'm not trying to challenge anyone's beliefs. I really want to know why this happens and I'm hoping that someone can give me an answer. As I said earlier, I've been struggling with this for years.

[UnklGene]

I thanked Dr Mullen for his article and pointed out that Mary Magdalene probably had not been born at the time of the slaughter of the innocents; Elizabeth and Zacharias, John the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) parents, faith would not have wavered or "gone wobbly" at this time.

[mewper]

This seems to be the appropriate story for this: A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving a God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I'm here, and I'm a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist!" answered the barber. "What happens is people don't come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens is people don't go to Him and don't look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

[catonsville]

I have accepted that suffering is the price we pay for free will. I have not accepted the EXTENT of that suffering is the price we pay for free will.

[UnklGene]

Adults have free will but children don't. I used to teach Sunday School to 4th grade boys and girls. Every year, I asked them how old they were when their parents taught them how to lie. Their answer was always: "They didn't teach me how to lie, I always have lied." (Free will) It shows up very early. We realize very early on in life that we're going to die early or not so early. Judeo-Christianity says it's a result of "original sin." Why does a child suffer: It rains on the just and the unjust. Science can explain statistically how many children will die of what; actuarians can predict exactly when a person will die within 6-18 months if they have the vital statistics. Often if someone is ill, they can be accurate within days. God set up the system to work the way that it does.

[jocon307]

"But why does God allow children to suffer?"

I can't give you a good answer to this, there is a big catholic doctrine about suffering in this world, rather than the next.

And I would recommend you take a look at post #9 on this thread.

But I think the real point is that we live in a fallen world, and the most we can do to make this world a good place for the innocent children in it is a good thing. A Blessing, a mitzvah.

That is all we can do, for now.

[UnklGene]

Thanks for the good reply!

[onedoug]

One guesses The Holocaust never troubled this cleric's "faith".

[wideawake]

One guesses The Holocaust never troubled this cleric's "faith".

Of course not.

As far as Dr. Williams is concerned, Hitler only killed those dirty Jews who've been giving his buddy Arafat such a hard time.

[SilentServiceCPOWife]

Thank you for your responses.

[justin-garrett]

I think that your quest is completely valid, as I am an ex-athiest, I wondered my self.

I can only say that there is no easy answers, only speculation, but that is where faith comes in.

Why do we have faith? We have faith because we believe that the men who wrote the bible over the course of hundreds of years where honest and credible men.

How do we know they were credible? Well we know because of the fruit they bore.

Matthew 7:15-20
“Be careful of false prophets. They come to you looking gentle like sheep, but they are really dangerous like wolves. You will know these people by what they do. Grapes don’t come from thornbushes, and figs don’t come from thorny weeds. In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do." (NCV)

I suggest reading the first 5 chapters of the new testament called the gospel, and honestly see if you can prove to your self (not disprove) what is written.
you just might see things from a different perspective :)

[mewper]

I certainly am no theologian and not even much of a churchgoer. But this is what I believe:

That life is a stage -- a passing stage. When God said "Let's create man in Our image" He did not mean to create man in the way He looks exactly. God is a spirit and therefore, we are, in our very basic nature, spirits. Life in this world is only a transition. We are here because He wanted us here and the best way to live life is to live it according to His purpose.

The best relationship that we can have in this world is our relationship with God. And the best relationship we can have with HIm, as with anybody, is to do as He wants us to do, not because we fear punishment but because it will please Him.

Jesus said that there are no commandments greater than these: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

What, in this world, will make you break these?

Will seeing injustice and suffering make you lose your faith? Will it make you stop believing that there is a life after this world? When somebody does you wrong, will you then learn to hate?

I think, to keep those two greatest commandments takes a difficult mixture of love and faith. Love for humanity, that we may in ourselves be just and compassionate to people around us, and a faith in God, that we may accept that when things don't work out the way we think they should or that in spite of all the suffering we see, we understand that He is not to blame, we accept that there is a reason for everything.

[hc87]

9/11 caused me to undertake a pretty thorough review of my faith. At the end of the day, I can square the existence of God who is personally involved in the world with acts like 9/11 and Beslan, because such acts are the result of an exercise of free will. And when free will exists, some people will choose to act in an evil fashion.

But why do random bad things like a child suffering from cancer occur? This still gives me problems from a faith perspective.

Certainly random bad acts are not a consequence of an exercise of free will by anyone. So why would a loving God, who is active in the world tolerate a human genetic fault that causes cells to grow out of control and eventually kill their host?

The only explanation I can come up with is that random bad things occur for pedagogical reasons. In other words, God created a cruel and indifferent world where children die from cancer and measles and small pox because part of God's design is to force humanity to become educated to solve such problems. In a sense, the hard work and knowledge associated with eliminating small pox and measles is part of God's plan for the improvement of humanity over time. This seems unsatisfying to me because there still is no rhyme or reason as to why any particular child suffers from cancer and another grows up healthy.

Anyone else want to suggest a more logical or more theologically satisfying reason for the occurrence of random bad things? This is a question that has been bothering me for 3 years and any other perspectives on this would be deeply appreciated.

[fish hawk]

Yes there are "girlie-men" even in the cloth.