Hmong Journey

mercury news | July 18, 2004 | Ben Stocking

[Chummy]

What was the fate of the Hmong in that period that followed those "30-40 years ago" to which you refer?

What are the moral obligations of the United States in this regard?

[Kozak]

You are a hoot. In this little debate I have been accused of being parochial and seeing only a small local slice. Then of using non statistics. Then of using outdated statistics. Oh yeah and of being some kind of union goon.
So I get more recent stats which reflect nationwide facts, and from a neighboring and very similar state, Minnesota.
Which are at most 3-4 years old. So NOW you critisize me for NOT using parochial statistics.

Are you under the bizarre delusion that the Wisconsin Hmong are somehow signicantly different from the Minnesota Hmong, or from the national statistics for say education (50% 9 grade or less )? I used what I could find. Frankly NOTHING

Regarding our obligation to the Hmong I will repeat my response to Dr Marten:

Yeah the Hmong helped us out in Vietnam. The Vietnam war was a tragedy of bad decisions and missed opportunities. Lots of Vietnamese got screwed for helping us, do we bring them all over now? The Shia's and the Kurds rose up at our bidding after the
gulf War and got screwed. Do they get a ticket?
Poles and Hungarians rebelled against the Soviets at our bidding, do they get a ticket? There are people all over the world who have been our allies at one point or another and have gotten a raw deal, do all of them get a ticket?
At what point will you be satisfied that our debt is payed? When every last hmong is here in the US? Wasn't any of the 50,000 dead and thousands wounded, billions spent fighting FOR THEIR freedom count for nothing towards that debt?

[Chummy]

I've accused you of nothing, have I, Kozak?

But, yes, you are being parochial and are considering a small, local slice, as you say. In more than one post you've railed about what the relocation is going to cost you and your community, and at least once you've demanded monies be paid by folks like me and my family. When it's revealed that the monies derive from a federal source -- each of us -- you do not address the facts, but instead post another few-year old study from outside Wisconsin.

I must have missed someone referring to you as a "union goon"; did you comment somewhere that you belong to a labor union? Or did someone else jump to a conclusion?

I'm not certain of the "non statistics", but you are in fact using "outdated statistics", as well as a decade-old article whose source is a publication that leans left. Countering with the plea if others think you should take a current poll is at best a specious argument; you chose to use the old statistics and have given little to no regard to facts, including those more current than the information you are sharing.

(Curious, by the way, that you denounce my posting of an article whose source is the Wisconsin Governor -- and current to that date of posting -- as being from a liberal elected official, while also ignoring the caveats that I included prominently therein.)

Ha! Minnesota is a "very similar state"? To what? Wisconsin? In what manner? How do you arrive at this ludicrous opinion?

I'm under no delusion, neither bizarre nor otherwise, but to contrast the experiences of a group of people living in one geographical area with its own laws, rules, customs and so forth, with that of another geographical area, again with its own laws, rules, customs and so forth, is faulty, to say the least.

Consider and carry your statement further: do you feel or believe that those who reside in Wisconsin are somehow significantly the same as those who reside in, say Massachusetts? Not Hmong, but any citizen?

Yes, we share some, if not much, in common. We all as Americans and free men and women do.

Yet you folks up in Wausau and Marathon County are hardly the same as those in Milwaukee County, for another example, just within the confines of the Badger State. If you think otherwise, you should travel around the state just a tad more.

I again respectfully urge you to learn more about the Hmong, with the hopes it will open your heart, mind and eyes to their history and relation with the people of the United States. You're wrong about their role "in Vietnam", well, at least if you are referring to the War and not geographically.

This is not "a ticket", it's not "a free ride". Kozak, these people have absolutely nowhere to go, have little to no worldly possessions, have lived in squallor for decades, and it's all because this country recruited them to help and serve our national interests.

How is it you arrive again and again that we fought for the freedom of the Hmong? Do you think that they are the same as the South Vietnamese? That they lived in Vietnam?

"Poles...rebelled against the Soviets at our bidding..."? To what does this refer? Gdansk? Warsaw '44?

[dennisw]

What are the moral obligations (the Hmong) of the United States in this regard? ......

Finished. I stated that in my previous post. You act as though we have never done anything for Hmong refugees.

[dennisw]

15,000 Hmong are slated to come over here. Will that finish our obligation or do you want 100,000 more after this? Does this ever end?

[Chummy]

Read the reports first, and you will know yourself how many Hmong remain in the refugee camps, and you will have your answer.

[Chummy]

I do not "act as though" anything. I'm posting thoughts.

Part-way for those who gave all is not enough. It matters not that an initial group has found opportunity when others remain in squallor and it's all because this nation recruited their assistance to further this nation's interests.

[dennisw]

I read further and ---->>>

But the Her family may have to wait countless more years in vain. The resettlement policy, announced in December 2003 by the U.S. State Department, will not include them. It will allow entry for a maximum of 15,000 refugees and is limited to those now living on the Wat Tham Krobak campgrounds -- a Buddhist temple about an hour and a half from Bangkok by car. That number is only half of an estimated 30,000 refugees scattered throughout Northern Thailand. With direct links to the war, these refugees, just like the Wat ones, are not accepted as Thai citizens, are not allowed to leave their respective provinces and are not welcome back in Laos.

The Wat Tham Krobak refugees were considered for resettlement because many lost UNHCR protection after leaving "established" camps in 1999.

The State Department refuses to speculate on the fate of Hmong refugees outside of the Wat campgrounds. The department now has a list, compiled by Thai officials, of those living at Wat Tham Krobak who will be eligible for resettlement. No new names will be added to that list.

Still, news of the resettlement policy will reach unintended audiences throughout Thailand. Thousands of people like C.V. Her will renew their hopes and wait on a policy that has already decided who will go and who will stay. They will likely spend their lives as squatters, hoping that the Thai government does not forcibly repatriate them to Laos, a country with a deep-rooted history of ethnic cleansing practices against the Hmong.

[dennisw]

The Wat Tham Krobak refugees were considered for resettlement because many lost UNHCR protection after leaving "established" camps in 1999.
______________

Do you have any idea why they left? It seems they left the UN refugee camps and now we're sorta forced to take them in rather than other Hmong in Thailand. Seems like they are being rewarded for bad behaviour

[dennisw]

"It's really tough right now, especially for people with low language skills and little work history," said Karen Calcaterra, a career program manager for immigrants and refugees at the nonprofit organization Lifetrack Resources. "In different times, refugees would come and the employers would be desperate for workers. Now there are three people competing for every vacancy."

Many Hmong families in the area are expecting scores of relatives in the new influx. Xiong's sister-in-law, Chong Thao, has about 30 more relatives arriving. While most here are filled with excitement at the prospect of family reunions, they will be presented with financial and logistical problems.

[Kozak]

Ha! Minnesota is a "very similar state"? To what? Wisconsin? In what manner? How do you arrive at this ludicrous opinion?

Nope nothing similar about two upper midwestern neighboring states with largely northern European stock that have a mixed agriculture and manufacturing economy. No similarity at all.

	MINNESOTA	WISCONSIN
POPULATION	5,059,375	5,472,299
WHITE	4,539,000	4,913,299
% WHITE	90	90
ASIAN	158,941	101,145
UNEMPLOYMENT	4.4	5.5
INCOME	30,675	26,941
MEDIAN INCOME	47,111	43,771
CRIME	268	225
% HOME OWNERS	77	72
FED AID / CAP	1151	1134
POVERTY %	7.9	8.7
POP18 UNDER	24.9	24.6
POP 65 OVER	12.0	13.0

I didn't say you called me a anything, but several others on this thread did. You will note that I have been civil and not engaged in name calling when responding to you.

You continually state I am using distorted or old statistics. These statistics are no more then 4 years old. Hot off the presses as far as demographics are concerned.

The federal monies may be present for the first two years, but drop off at that point. At this point the federal relocation funds work out to a whooping 130 bucks per person. Federal welfare benefits end at 2 years AT WHICH local folk pick up your gratitude. Wisconsin has already absorbed 10 times its share based on population.

That dated article if you had bothered to even read it, did a wonderful job of pointing out the law of unintended concequences that befell Wausau, in which the population was forced for over a decade to cope with a whole host of problems which the citizens of that area were never consulted on.

Regarding the Vietnam War, the conflicts in Laos and Cambodia were direct extensions of the Vietnam war. If you are not clear on that I suggest YOU do a little research. We fought the NVA which had occupied part of Laos, AND helped Laos battle the Pathet Lao their "Vietcong". IF we had defeated the NVA Laos would not have fallen. Hence our fighting in Vietnam directly impacted on the hope of freedom for all people in Southeast Asia.

If the Hmong arrived here, and did not require a significant and lengthy period of public support I would not have a major objection, but no matter how you attempt to gloss it over it is a ticket, worth tens of thousands of dollars per person that will transfered from other citizens to these new immigrants. If your truly are so passionate, why don't you try and raise the money from like minded charitable folk who feel so strongly on repaying this "debt".

Finally regarding this "debt" you suggest looking to the refugee population for when you will feel satisfied it's repayed. So will bringing another 300,000 do? Or should we add the 100,000 in Burma? the 1.2 mil in Vietnam (can't be a picknick in the Peoples Republic)? The 9.7 mil in Red China? Whats it gonna take to satisfy you?

[Kozak]

"Poles...rebelled against the Soviets at our bidding..."? To what does this refer? Gdansk? Warsaw '44?

I was thinking of 1956. From Britannica:

Warsaw Pact troops were called into action to suppress uprisings in Poland (1956), Hungary (1956), and Czechoslovakia (1968).

[S.O.S121.500]

"It is still illegal."

But biblical..__..and separate state and church is the law.

[television is just wrong]

That is why a mormon man is in jail for the same thing.

[Chummy]

One word that fails to appear in your stats: "POLITICS".

[Kozak]

So your argument is that despite being very similar states in terms of every significant demographic measurement, somehow in some mystical way, the "politics" of the states makes their comparison invalid? And somehow that would make the Hmong immigrant experience and costs somehow magically different? Oh do tell, I can't wait to hear this one.