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Science Icon Fires Broadside At Creationists
London Times vis The Statesman (India) ^ | 04 July 2004 | Times of London Editorial

Posted on 07/04/2004 5:19:27 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: Oztrich Boy
Darwin himself, troubled by the stubbornness of the fossil record in refusing to yield abundant examples of gradual change, devoted two chapters to the fossil record. To preserve his argument he was forced to assert that the fossil record was too incomplete, to full of gaps, to produce the expected patterns of change. He prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search and then his major thesis - that evolutionary change is gradual and progressive - would be vindicated. One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin's predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong.

Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I.
The Myths of Human Evolution 1982, p. 45-46


481 posted on 07/07/2004 6:03:22 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: VadeRetro

Which theory of evolution is correct, punctuated equilibria or gradualism?


482 posted on 07/07/2004 6:06:29 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan

Both, as neither contradicts the other, but rather compliments it. Why is it so difficult for creationists to wrap their minds around such concepts? Do y'all exist in an either-or universe?


483 posted on 07/07/2004 7:01:00 AM PDT by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: Aquinasfan
Which theory of evolution is correct, punctuated equilibria or gradualism?

Both... or ... three (Random/neutral genetic drift)... or four ... or ...

He also virtually anticipated punctuated equilibrium.

484 posted on 07/07/2004 7:09:50 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: Aquinasfan
It's my understanding ...

Your understanding includes so many misunderstandings and outright lies that it is worthless for the purpose of argument.

When it has been shown that you manufactured a false and deceptive quote, you respond that the falsehood was part of your understanding. What God do you worship that requires falsehood?

There's a difference between the fossil record "not containing every transitional form that ever lived" and a fossil record that uniformly exhibits stasis within species.

Since fossils are by definition, how are they supposed to be anything but static? You demand transitionals between ancient ape fossils and modern humans, and transitionals are found. You demand transitionals between land animals and whales, and transitionals are found. You demand transitionals between reptilians and birds, and feathered dinosaurs are found. All of these are consistent with the predictions of Darwin.

Please note that the knife used in the OJ Simpson murders has never been found. It would be consistent with most people's understanding that this knife once existed. That knife may never be found, but the belief in the existence of that knife is not a religious belief. It is a rational extrapolation of evidence.

Evolution is a forensic science. It uses the same tools and same lines of reasoning that are used to send murders to their execution. It is not without problems, but is every bit as rational and sound as the science used to find and convict criminals.

In denying the validity of biological science, are you prepared to open the prison doors for every criminal convicted without a confession?

485 posted on 07/07/2004 7:25:12 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: js1138
Since fossils are dead by definition, how are they supposed to be anything but static?
486 posted on 07/07/2004 7:26:03 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: Aquinasfan
Which theory of evolution is correct, punctuated equilibria or gradualism?

What methods of travel are correct: planes, trains, boats, or automobiles?

487 posted on 07/07/2004 7:28:12 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: VadeRetro
Sort of wrecks any impression that things might be getting better out there, doesn't it?

These threads are probably what it's like being an Army drill instructor, specializing in the first week of basic training. Every Monday morning (or, in this analogy, every new thread) you just stand there in amazement, watching as the long-haired lard-buckets tumble out of the Greyhound busses at the reception station, shaking your head, wondering if there's any hope for the nation.

But the truly amazing thing is that the same recruits keep showing up, cycle after cycle, showing no improvement at all. So, Sergeant Vade, we just have to keep kicking their butts and hoping for the best.

488 posted on 07/07/2004 7:30:20 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Aquinasfan
Both, as neither contradicts the other, but rather compliments it.

Darwin: "If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection." -- IOW Natural selection is indispensable to my theory.

Talk origins ---- Studies of evolution at the molecular level have provided strong support for drift as a major mechanism of evolution. Observed mutations at the level of gene are mostly neutral and not subject to selection.

489 posted on 07/07/2004 7:30:36 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: AndrewC

Neutral variations are not subject to selection by definition. The statement that neutral mutations are not subject to selection is a tautology. The fact that neutral mutations exist simply expands the gene pool. There is no way of knowing in advance what environmental changes might, in a future time, give one of these "neutral" variations a selective anvantage. You don't know in advance which basket of eggs will be dropped.

What possible connection is there between the two quotes you presented? Are you trolling for responses, or is there some new form of the English language that I'm unfamiliar with?


490 posted on 07/07/2004 7:38:32 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: Junior; balrog666; AndrewC
Paladins are Lawful Good. Anti-Paladins are Chaotic Evil. You're not doing well lately in the "Getting Things Right" department.

666 implies "Anti" in Balrog666.

I'm a little suprised you missed that. I hope AAA has lug nuts. :-)

491 posted on 07/07/2004 7:43:26 AM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: js1138
What possible connection is there between the two quotes you presented?

Well, Darwin claims that natural selection is indispensable for his theory. Genetic evidence demonstrates that it is not necessary. There is an incompatibility between the theories, something that is claimed does not exist.

492 posted on 07/07/2004 7:47:55 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: VadeRetro
All hail the still-unknown and undiscovered, for He lives there!
To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress.
-- Albert Einstein
It's item #18, found HERE.
493 posted on 07/07/2004 7:52:41 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: bondserv
I hope AAA has lug nuts. :-)

I assume that was addressed to me. You know, that joke gives me hope that the graduates of church schools that I see at the MacDonalds counter have some flexibility in their career choices. They can at least change tires at Goodyear.

494 posted on 07/07/2004 7:54:25 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: js1138
I assume that was addressed to me. You know, that joke gives me hope that the graduates of church schools that I see at the MacDonalds counter have some flexibility in their career choices. They can at least change tires at Goodyear.

In my book (Bible), there's nothing wrong with someone earning an honest living. A person's character bears all of the significance, and to gain character, alignment is critical.

495 posted on 07/07/2004 8:01:59 AM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: AndrewC
Well, Darwin claims that natural selection is indispensable for his theory.

You are generally much smarter than this. I suggest you have a cup of coffeee and reread the first Darwin quote. He is saying that if selection worked against the interests of the individual (for the benefit of others), it would be a problem for evolution. He says nothing about the possibility of neutral changes.

Of course, an observer who is not pig-headed might note that some species evolve as a group, and individuals cannot reproduce successfully in the absense of large numbers. In such species (say passenger pigeons) selection will change the individual as it relates to the group.

Something similar might be said of parasites. The strongest and most vigorous individual might kill its host and endanger its own chance to reproduce. But you know these things. You are merely pulling our chains.

496 posted on 07/07/2004 8:04:56 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: bondserv
In my book (Bible), there's nothing wrong with someone earning an honest living.

You don't need to defend your personal career choice with me. Changing tires is an honorable profession, and fully utilizes your understanding of the world.

497 posted on 07/07/2004 8:07:00 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: bondserv
A person's character bears all of the significance, and to gain character, alignment is critical.

Yep, two men died recently. One, who had a long and happy life, acknowledged God and was honored by a state funeral, the other, who had a long life filled with tragedy, did not acknowledge God and was cremated secretly.

498 posted on 07/07/2004 8:07:40 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: AndrewC
Ah, once again you post quotes that have no bearing on the comments you purport to address. You used to be relevant to these discussions, but your actual contributions have dropped off considerably over the past couple of years.

I blame it on that crowd with which you insist upon running.

499 posted on 07/07/2004 8:12:16 AM PDT by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: js1138
I suggest you have a cup of coffeee and reread the first Darwin quote.

Well, I suggest you read his quote properly. This is what he states ---> for such could not have been produced through natural selection. He rejects something because it could not be reproduced through natural selection. That makes natural selection absolutely necessary for his theory.

And your comments are nonsensical. Individuals do not evolve(in biological terms). Talk about smarts and changing tires.

500 posted on 07/07/2004 8:14:37 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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