A Toomey/Specter Epitaph

self | 05/01/04 | joanie-f

[bvw]

The Federal Goverment has such criminal jurisdiction in Federal Districts, Territories and administered areas -- such as territory captured in war. Beyond that -- we agree the Federal Juggernaut has crushed many a good right and power of a State under its flower-bedecked wheels.

In the business of throwing off idolatry, it's useful to read up on the old Juggernaut and the willing, popular and clebrated child sacrifice it represented.

[bvw]

That is a lie. From a poster known to be a deceiver.

It is not "Pat Toomey on Free Trade": it is two votes on related issues, but that is not necessarily a good indicator or his position on Free Trade. And from you, Luis, NOTHING is to be trusted. That is your posting legacy.

[Sun]

You are smart to clear your head before making a decision. I'm sure you will pray about it, too.

This might be a terrific time for the Constitution Party to win one!! Pro-life conservatives are angry, and there's a long time before now and the election to promote their candidate.

I really think it is unwise to vote for a pro-abortion, liberal Democrat OR pro-abortion, liberal Republican. It just sends each party the wrong message. I have voted for the "lesser of the evils" before, but Arlen Specter and Joe Hoeffel are just about equally evil.

Another thing we can do IMHO is send back those solicitations from the Republican Party WITHOUT A CHECK and tell them we will no longer contribute to their party and why! I will only contribute to individual pro-life, anti-socialists candidates from now on, regardless of their party.

[Luis Gonzalez]

If ytou wish to engage in personal attacks, go elsewhere, I'm not playing.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"That is a lie. From a poster known to be a deceiver."

Are you saying that Toomey did not vote exactly the way it was described in the post?

And how about rather than simply slinging mud, as your style seems to be, you replace your ad hominem attacks with some sort of substance?

[bvw]

"Playing" is ALL you do. Grow up, for goshsakes. Give up posting on any forum for a couple of years. Let life -- real life be part of your existance.

[sully777]

Why was I pinged? Ping me after November, 2004 and I'll respond.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Who's advocating ceding ground?

The battle is where the battle is, not where you want it to be.

You go vote Constitution Party as a sour grapes reaction to the fact that Arlen Specter won, AS HE HAS FOR THE PAST TWO PLUS DECADES, and you are literally abandoning the field of battle.

The Democrats have one prevailing ideology...defeat the Republicans, right now, it appears that a good number of people in this thread share the Dems goal in the upcoming elections in PA.

I have one prevailing ideology, defeat the Democrats. Had I worked for Toomey, I would now be ready to vote for the GOP candidate, and would be looking forward to the next elections, where Toomey should run to replace Specter's vacated seat, with the GOP's backing.

There are few members of the US Senate as conservative as Rick Santorum, and Rick backed Specter.

Why?

Because he understands the necessity of the Party supporting the incumbents.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Do you have anything at all to add to this debate?

Or are you just interested in moving this thread to the backroom?

[Badray]

"...such as territory captured in war."

Well, I guess that extends to all of the states then, since we have all been captured by the government's war against us. ;-)

Thanks for the clarification as I likely wouldn't get one from the other poster.

[Luis Gonzalez]

My point joannie, is that the definition of "conservative" is a nebulous as the clouds.

Some people in this forum would call Toomey a socialist in light of his votes on trade issues.

"My personal definition of a ‘conservative’ is one who (1) seeks to hold fast to the Founders’ vision of government – limited (regarding intrusion into the lives of its citizens and exhibiting fiscal responsibility) and specifically defined, (2) believes in the timelessness and necessity of adhering to Judeo/Christian moral values, (3) reveres individual liberty, (4) believes in individual responsibility and willingness to accept the consequences of one’s own (in)actions, and (5) believes that our national (physical and economic) sovereignty must be defended at all costs."

That's great, and very close to my own.

But we don't define politicians based on those principles, we define them by their votes in Congress.

For example, I would argue that in way too many instances, your numbers 1 and 2 clash.

Many, many conservatives have absolutely no problem with the government intruding heavily not only into the lives of citizens, but into their very bedrooms.

Your number 2 is also diametrically opposite to Jefferson's stance on the subject of electing public servants according to their religious beliefs.

"our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it"

You see, when we get down to the nitty gritty of debating whether a politician is a conservative or not, you can't use such nebulous, all encompassing principles such as the ones you've stated, you must use specific issues, the way the candidates voted for those issues, and WHY they voted the way they did.

Having said all that, I would have voted for Toomey in the primaries (I agree with his votes on the trade issues), and would have also voted for Specter in the general elections, because my principles dictate that I take whatever action needed to keep a Democrat from office.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"...they were votes which seemed to mirror the GOP stand on both issues (not necessarily characteristic of Toomey..."

There's the rub.

Toomey's voting is no more supportive of the GOP that Arlen's.

[Badray]

Thank you joanie.

There are so many battles and battlefields. . .

Over the last several years, I've scaled back work to get more involved where and as needed.

We all take freedom for granted and live our lives accordingly. But when you realize that we are no longer as free as we were and are at risk of losing it entirely, it changes your perspective. Money frittered away can be earned anew. Liberty cannot. Once gone, it can only be purchased with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

I look forward to working with you in the future and I'll definitely keep you posted on what we put together.

BTW, are you going to DC next weekend for the SAS rally?

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

Vote Jim Clymer

Is he a member of the LP or the CP?

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

It's not a secret anymore. Hoping a Democrat wins the general election pretty much wipes out an pretense of caring about conservative causes.

Hoping a liberal Republican win also wipes out any pretense of caring about conservative causes.

There's no difference between Specter and Hoeffel, other than in personalities whereas Hoeffel isn't your typical smarmy, arrogant liberal.

[Minuteman23]

Jim Clymer is the head of the Constitution Party of the US, headquartered in Lancaster.

[dansangel]

HERMAN CAIN must win the nomination!

He's got two votes from this household - unless, of course, my prayers are answered and we are able to relocate back to FL beforehand.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

You're a great poster, Luis, but you're simply wrong on this issue.

If you vote for liberal Republicans just to keep Democrats out of office, what exactly are you accomplishing?

[onyx]

BEFOREHAND?
Isn't the election in early July?
What haven't you told me? :)

[Derrymcfall]

Keep talking about Toomey. We must not forget about the travesty that was pulled on us Pennsylvanians!