FRESH CLUE SHOWS TURIN SHROUD MAY BE GENUINE BURIAL CLOTH OF CHRIST

The Mirror ^ | April 2, 2004 | David Edwards

[Qwinn]

"The Resurrection I can believe. the majical image, no. its akin to idol worship. You must be a Catholic."

No, actually, I'm agnostic.

"Idol worship"? So, let me guess - anything that could remotely be considered physical evidence that Jesus existed is an "idol"?

Bizzare!

Qwinn

[old-ager]

> Another problem with this approach... Jesus is blood
> relative to Mary and "adoptive" son to Joseph.

Yes. Not sure what the right term is for Joseph's relationship. Not even adoptive, really. The thing is, outwardly Joseph played the role of a faithful earthly dad. But of course was not the father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

> Jesus came from the family and lineage of David but, through
> the work of the Holy Spirit, He was born of a virgin.

Amen.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

I am not, altho I wonder why the Bible's endless genealogies seem to focus on men w/occasional footnote mentions of the women (son of this, son of that, son of etc [brother to Ruth]), if it's "passed thru the mother"? Why so much emphasis on the males if that is the case?

It is correct that the Bible emphasizes lineage through the father not the mother, a simple reading of Genesis clears this up. Somehow this was later changed because, and I'm guessing at this point, the best way to determine lineage was through the mother since that was a given.

In any case the point that Jesus' lineage though Mary can be ignored is not a good one, it is through Mary that Jesus had the Levitical priest line, while Joseph was the Kingship line.

[tiamat]

Aquinasfan wrote:



The blood type on the

Shroud of Turin
Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Sudarium of Oviedo

is AB.

Type AB blood occurs in 2% of the population.

---

Well, THAT ought to narrow it down a bit!

Interesting.

Thanks for the links!

[johnb838]

Anyone with AB Negative blood is descended from Jesus Christ Himself. (kidding!)

[johnb838]

He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen."

This is not the KJV translation. The KJV says:

Jhn 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Jhn 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Jhn 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

This cloth converts the unbeliever and heals the sick. That makes it miraculous no matter what Carbon-14 dating says. "Thou shalt know them by their fruits" (Matt 7:16), I always say. "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

[johnb838]

In Gibsons portrayal of the Crucifixion, he both nailed and tied. I think this is probably correct. If you tied only, an arm could wriggle out. If you nailed only, an arm could rip out. No, the best way is to do both.

[Xenalyte]

Are there any Jews living today that can trace their lineage that far back?

According to some, the Plantard de St. Clair family is Davidian (and Merovingian, which opens up a HUGE can of worms).

[Xenalyte]

I was a graduate student in Chemistry when I attended the annual American Chemical Society convention and heard the speaker present the results from the studies of the shroud. I don't remember the name of the scientist who gave the talk, but I do remember that he introduced himself as an atheist who had joined the team in order to prove the shroud was a fake.

Walter McCrone, perhaps? (Or is he on the other side of the debate? I forget.)

[tiamat]

the OlLine Rebel wrote:

Besides the fact that DNA from 100 years apart of indirect relatives is a shot in the dark (to wit: that Jefferson nonsense), Jesus was not actually the biological son of Joseph (and hence David). He may only have been the bio son of Mary, whose lineage is, of course being a woman, ignored. In any case, being the actual Son of God, it's possible there is no real DNA to go on, anyway.

---

I thought Jewish people of that period traced lineage through the mother's side?

[Netizen]

Your post makes me wonder. How many times did Jesus need to have his body anointed for burial?

Matthew 26
12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

Mark 14
8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.

John 19
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Was this an anointing or was it something else?

250 aloe {al-o-ay'}
1) aloe, aloes

++++ The name of an aromatic tree which grows in eastern India and Cochin China, and whose soft and bitter wood the Orientals used in fumigation and in embalming the dead. The tree grows to a height of 120 feet (40 m) and a girth of 12 feet (4 m).

This is interesting because embalming is not a Jewish custom. Embalming is an Egyptian custom.

Embalming was never practised in Israel: the two examples known, those of Jacob and Joseph, are explicitly ascribed to Egyptian custom ( Gn 50: 2-3).

[source:
ANCIENT ISRAEL Its Life and Institutions
by ROLAND de VAUX, O.P.
Translated by JOHN MCHUGH
MCGRAW-HILL BOOK COMPANY, INC. NEW YORK TORONTO LONDON - 1961)
page 56

Genesis 50
2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.
3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

[D-fendr]

G-d will not permit us to have enough evidence to "prove" it is the real death shrod of Christ. If he did so--we would lose "free will."

Interesting point. But I imagine it another way.

If it were "proven" it would then become an "event of physics" not a "miracle" at all you see.

And government grants would be let to try to develop the "resurrection treatment" as a medical tool.

[mtbopfuyn]

If I were to carry in my pocket some coins minted during the time of Pontius Pilate would that make me Jesus?

[shroudie]

What you say about carbon 14 testing is true. But a big question is simply this: Was the right thing tested?

Ben Witherington, a well-known and respected biblical scholar, tells us that the carbon 14 tests are now significantly disputed. Witherington has a vast knowledge of the New Testament and the history of Jesus’ era and has written many thoughtful books and articles. Recently, with Hershel Shanks, the editor of Biblical Archeological Review, he coauthored a best-selling book, “The Brother of Jesus.” It is about a controversial artifact, an authenticity-disputed ossuary bearing the inscription "James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus.” In an article in Christianity Today (September 23, 2003), Witherington discussed the ossuary and nine other significant New Testament archaeological discoveries of the past 150 years. He led off with the controversial Shroud. Of its authenticity he wrote:

"This possibility seemed to have been ruled out when the Shroud was allowed to be carbon dated in the late '80s, and the date that came to light from the testing was from the early Middle Ages. But wait. We know the Shroud was scorched in a fire in the early Middle Ages, and it appears that the carbon 14 testing may have been skewed because a scorched part of the cloth was tested, and also because the microbiotic coating on the Shroud was not cleaned off before testing. Even careful scientific testing does not always produce indisputable results. Naturally, finding an image of Jesus would be the biggest find of any sort relating to the New Testament. But the jury is still out on the Shroud.”

A careful reading of several recent studies by many scientists and historians makes it clear that the jury is indeed is still out. Scientists now dispute the carbon 14 testing so conclusively that we can no longer consider the medieval results definitive. But not for the reason given by Witherington.

The scorching proposal is that high temperatures from a fire in 1532, which damaged and nearly destroyed the Shroud, enhanced the mix of radioactive carbon 14 and stable carbon 12 isotopes in the cloth. This, if true, would make the cloth seem newer than it is. But experiments to test this idea have not been promising. Any change caused by the fire would likely be too trivial to be significant. And while a microbiotic growth found on some archeological artifacts may be present on the Shroud, it is questionable if there can be sufficient quantity of this newer material to alter the measurements enough to make a first century cloth seem medieval.

***** Recent, thorough, well-documented and confirmable studies by several researchers explain why the radiocarbon dating was incorrect.

M. Sue Benford and Joseph Marino, in collaboration with number of textile experts, identified clear evidence of medieval mending on the Shroud. A patch was expertly sewn to or rewoven into the fabric to repair a damaged edge. It was from this patch—quite likely nothing more than a piece of medieval cloth—that the samples were taken. From documenting photographs of the sample areas, the textile experts identified enough newer thread to permit Ronald Hatfield, of the prestigious radiocarbon dating firm Beta Analytic, to estimate that the true date of the cloth is much older—perhaps even 1st century.

Independently, Anna Arnoldi of the University of Milan and Raymond N. Rogers, a Fellow of the University of California Los Alamos National Laboratory have explored the chemical nature of the sample area. They have confirmed the finding of Benford and Marino. Ultraviolet photography and spectral analysis show that the area from which the samples were taken was chemically unlike the rest of the cloth. Chemical analysis reveals the presence of Madder root dye and an aluminum oxide mordant (a reagent that fixes dyes to textiles) not found elsewhere on Shroud. Medieval artisans often dyed threads in this manner when mending damaged tapestries. This was simply to make the repairs less noticeable. The presence of Madder root and mordant suggests that the Shroud was mended in this way.

Microchemical tests also reveal vanillin (C8H8O3 or 4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde) in an area of the cloth from which the carbon 14 sample were cut. But the rest of the cloth does not test positive for it. Vanillin is produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a complex polymer, a non-carbohydrate constituent of plant material including flax. Found in medieval materials but not in much older cloths, it diminishes and disappears with time. For instance, the wrappings of the Dead Sea scrolls do not test positive for vanillin.

This is an important find. It suggests that the tested samples were possibly much newer and it underscores that the chemical nature of the carbon 14 samples and the main part of the cloth are outstandingly different.

In other words we probably have a very good carbon 14 test for a medieval patch and not the Shroud of Turin.

Shroudie

[Stallone]

Correct.

If you're a true Freeper, you'll keep an open mind.

As a scientist, these are the following reasons to be compelled and excited by the Shroud of Turin:

I dare you to contemplate them with an open mind.

A forger would have a nearly impossible task!

1. The Shroud is a photographic NEGATIVE image.

A millennium or two before photography was invented, this image lay in wait for mankind to discover. Secondo Pio, commissioned to photograph the Shroud, fell on his knees in the darkroom when he looked at a detailed face of a man for the first time in history around 1900.

2. The image has 3D qualities.

That's right, it's a 3D image, a millennium before such a concept was understood let alone reproducible.

Our forger is becoming quite the unique fellow!

3. The Shroud has an image that appears as partly a projection, and partly a contact transfer.

Strange indeed. It has orthogonal image qualities as if an image were projecting perpindicular through the cloth, but with an intensity proportional to the distance from the cloth of the hypothetical body. That is, the image is stronger where a body would have been closer, and faded where it would have been further away. Also, there are direct transfer elements where a body may have made contact including human blood.

4. No one to this day can explain what scientific phenomenon could make such an image on cloth.

Our forger is becoming more and more unique.

5. The image contains anatomical elements of the crucifixion process only recently discovered, and that were completely unknown at the time of its discovery and emergence in modern history.

The forger would require knowledge of crucifixion unknown in his era.

6. Iconographic evidence indicates other images of Christ centuries earlier than the forgery date have elements derived from the Shroud.

This one is quite intriguing. One example is a square on the forehead that appears in other representations of Christ centuries earlier. You see, the Shroud has an element in the cloth structure that looks like a square. This was not consciously forged, it is exists in the Shroud because it is a defect in the cloth itself. Other representations of Christ with a square on the forehead are more likely imitative of the original Shroud than the other way around.

7. The state of the art of drawing and painting at the time of its purported forgery was far inferior than the quality of the image on the Shroud.

Our forger is having quite a time of it, isn't he?

If you as a scientist believe it is a forgery, congratulations!

You must therefore conclude that your forger created an image by a process which to-date is unknown, as a photographic negative image so that it would be unappreciated by his peers, in a drawing style and quality that was centuries more advanced than his best contemporaries, with anatomical knowledge of crucifixion unknown in his era, with unprecedented access to worldwide representations of Christ so that he would embed defects and other qualities in the materials and image.

I present to you an alternative answer.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, The Lord Jesus Christ.

[RightOnline]

The image was created by some sort of radiative phenomenon........yet you are correct; to this day, they still don't know exactly what caused it. This, after some of the top scientific minds on the planet have studied it for over 25 years. Hope you read the link in my first reply in this thread, as well. Think you'd find it interesting.

[RightOnline]

Blood type was AB-, IIRC.

[shroudie]

You may be right. If nails or spikes were driven through the palms they would rip out if the arms were not tied.

However, if spikes were driven through the wrists, they would hold. That the Romans did, in fact, crucify victims by driving large nails through the wrist area of the forearm was confirmed by the 1968 archeological discovery of a crucifixion victim, named Johanan ben Ha-galgol, found near Jerusalem at Giv’at ha-Mivtar.

On the Shroud, in the hand wounds, we see that the nails were through the wrists and not the palms. This is evidenced by both the images and the bloodstains. That was contrary to all known artistic depictions of the crucifixion since the earliest carvings of the crucifixion on 5th century coffins. It was certainly the norm during the Middle Ages to depict Jesus as nailed through his palms. The wrists, however, are more archeologically and medically plausible. It was not before the first part of the 20th century, that medical experts first realized that nails driven through a man’s palms would not support his weight, even if his feet were nailed or supported. The nails would tear out.

Shroudie

[Stallone]

The real hoax was the carbon dating scam.

A conspiracy to deny Christianity?

I wonder if our Islamic friends or Jean Qaerry had something to do with that.

[RS]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, The Lord Jesus Christ."

Or I suppose Satan could have created it to deceive people into worrying about "graven images" ....