Army sets sights on XM8, a lighter, more-reliable rifle

Newark Star Ledger ^ | 3/21/2004 | Wayne Woolley

[reluctantwarrior]

Was the my buddy saw him with a trident your response to provide some corroboration to your insinuation? Chris Murray in collaboration with several operators developed the 6.8mm and it delivers the goods despite any personalities that might upset you that are associated with it.

[templar]

What would be the best rifle for the "Second Amendment Miltia",

Assuming you're referring to citizen soldiers (the Minutemen of days gone by) responding to a Red Dawn type of scenario:

I make several considerations, the first being the makeup of the militia itself in terms of age and physical fitness (irregular forces will have more variance than regular forces in physical condition).

For the young and fit, engagement of the enemy at close, even hand to hand, range is probable. This is the group that will need pistol and "assault" rifle armament. I lean toward the AK for it's simplicity, reliability, ease of use, and low maintenance in extended disadvantaged conditions. Ammo for this weapon is cheap, plentiful, and potentially obtainable from the enemy. It's range is adequate for any engagements in urban, suburban, or rural ambush situations.

For the somewhat older and less fit but still viable militiamen (those who can still run fast and jump high but not all day long): Effective engagement for these troops would not be at hand to hand range (with a younger, faster enemy) and a decent 308 battle rifle. FAL (my choice) or M1A. Both are high powered, long range (longer than the enemy will have) and reliable. Stay away from the HK, I've seen too many malfunctions at the range and have low faith in it's reliability if not consistently maintained.

For the old and/or physically unfit. Precision bolt action rifles for long range sniping. There is no reason an 80 year old man, or a teenager in a wheel chair, needs to sit on the sideline and let his country be overrun. 308 minimum caliber, prefer 300 mag if the person is able to handle the recoil. High quality scope. Have your own ammo. Stay away from exotic and wildcat calibers. Make sure the weapon (and scope) is weatherproofed.

My preference for the AK for close range is based on price, availability of ammo, and ease of maintenance and repair. The AR rifles are also good rifles, but not as practical if you need to leave them buried in the dirt or under water till you grab them for instant use. The AR type of rifle is also expensive, and ammo is costlier than AK ammo. The SKS is also a suitable, highly reliable, and generally under rated weapon, with a much lower profile than any AK or AR.

[TomasUSMC]

Range, long range stealth, accuracy. You can't overcome massive firepower but you can hit and run from afar. imo.

[Screaming_Gerbil]

Thanks for the replies and the info.

[Criminal Number 18F]

I thought you were asking me to back up my disdain for the Dentist. I think I have adequately backed it up.

I haven't said boo about Chris Murray. Only CMDR/DR/phony Roberts. If you think I was bagging on Murray we got off on the wrong foot.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[reluctantwarrior]

When did your friends see Roberts wearing a trident? I take fake SEALs seriously and have scuttled two so far. I have been fighting for the adoption of 6.8mm SPC for over two years now, I spent the majority of that time in 7th SFG. I have not personally seen Dr Roberts overstate anything and am skeptical of people that throw stones. Again if you have something to back up your disdain please send it.

[tx65]

Have you seen the 6.5 Grendel? Like the 6.8 Rem SPC it operates in the AR15 / M16, but has a decided ballistics advantage giving the AR15 / M16 true 800 M aimed fire capability and supressive fire capability beyond 1,000 yards.

For comparison (velocities all from 24 inch barrels for fairness)

6.8mm 115 Grain Sierra MatchKing = .340 BC (2800 fps)
6.5mm 108 Grain Lapua Scenar = .481 BC (2850 fps)
6.5mm 123 Grain Lapua Scenar = .542 BC (2750 fps)

The 6.5 Grendel is a 1,000 yard aimed fired cartridge. A 16 inch barrel AR15 version fired the 123 Lapua at Fort Knox on the 900 yard tank range and scored 6.5" groups at that distance. Best of all, the 6.5 Grendel has 50% less recoil then the 7.62 NATO and 32% less ammunition weight.

To see learn more about the 6.5 Grendel

http://www.65grendel.com

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2004/03/65mm_grendel_ak.html

[OKSooner]

So is it gonna be the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 cartridge?

[Criminal Number 18F]

A 16 inch barrel AR15 version fired the 123 Lapua at Fort Knox on the 900 yard tank range and scored 6.5" groups at that distance.

Holy Accuracy, Batman! The hairs on your scope reticle subtend neatly that much. Unfortunately for the 6.5 Grendel it does look like the writing is on the wall in favour of the 6.8 SPC. The best cartridge always raises the question, for what? And the best cartridge doesn't always win. The .222 Rem, a cartridge now forgotten by all but varmint hunters, had some advantages over the .223 (i.e., longer neck for seating bullets). The British .280 certainly had advantages over the 7.62 NATO.... I had a 6mm x 45 CAR-15 once. More hassle than it was worth!

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[tx65]

There is no contest between the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC other then the one created on the internet.

Given the phone calls I have received from various military commanders wanting to learn about the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.8 SPC is far from having handwriting on the wall in favor of it. The idea that the 6.8 SPC will replace the 5.56 NATO is pure scuttlebutt and "marketing speculation".

It is quite telling that Remington released the 6.8 SPC cartridge at the SHOT show with very little emphasis and did not show a rifle chambered in the 6.8 SPC or announce a tenative date of any such release. Given that it would have taken Remington all of 2 days to have a Rem 700 in 6.8 SPC to show at the event, it is quite interesting they didn't have one.

[OKSooner]

Perhaps a better question would be: In either case, what will the impact be on the civilian market if either of these are adapted?

For example, can we expect a short, handy Remington model 7 in either caliber for youth and women shooters who are averse to the recoil of the 7-08, etc? Or, will there be lots and lots of surplus 5.56mm and/or 7.62mm ammo at bargain prices for those of us who just want to shoot a lot?

[tx65]

Two well known bolt action rifle manufacturers have expressed interest in offering regular production 6.5 Grendel bolt action rifles.

The availability of low cost surplus ammo of the 5.56 and 7.62 has to do with NATO adoption and manufacture on a global scale. Adoption of a new cartridge by NATO is not a short process and is very political. Reaching the level of bargin prices would take years to realize as it did for both the 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO.

[OKSooner]

Thanks.

[Bonesaw]

heh yeah a garand or an ak and im set

[Gone_Postal]

2. The military model TSMG's were all chambered for the CAL 45 M1911 cartridge.

Doesn't TSMG stand for Thompson Sub Machine Gun.aka, Tommy Gun....which was used in WW ll and chambered for 45ACP

[Buffalo Head]

"Doesn't TSMG stand for Thompson Sub Machine Gun.aka, Tommy Gun....which was used in WW ll and chambered for 45ACP"

Yes and no. The military TSMG's (M1928A1, M1 and M1A1) were all chambered for the 45 M1911, not anything described with an "ACP".

The War Department Basic Field Manual for the Thompson Submachine Gun, Caliber .45, M1928A1 (FM-40) of December 31, 1941 defines three cartridges authorized for use in the weapon; Ball Caliber .45, M1911, Tracer, Caliber .45 M1 and Dummy, Caliber .45, M1921.

Those folks blessed with a pre-WWII pistol chambered for the .45 ACP, and so marked on the barrel or slide, have every right to describe their as gun chambered for .45 ACP. All modern handguns and ammunition built by SAAMI members are marked 45 Auto. Look at the headstamp!

It is no more proper to refer to a cartridge by its obsolete designation than address someone's wife by her maiden name.

When you find yourself in a hole, it is best to stop digging.

Buff