Science in the Light of Faith: A Valuable Perspective

BreakPoint with Charles Colson ^ | Charles Colson

[Virginia-American]

Thanks. I knew there was such an organization, didn't have a clue what their logo is. However, it is a bit of s stretch to say that one org's logo is "... the symbol for atheism was most commonly the atom,". There is no generally-recognized symbol for atheism, not like fish, cross, swastika, star of David, hammer-and-sickle, crescent and star, etc for various belief systems.

[orionblamblam]

> as if it were all something to be made fun of...

What are you, a Democrat? Humor is for all times and all subjects.

> Do you have any beliefs as far as spiritual things go?

I believe that there is insufficient data to form a valid, working and testable theory of the supernatural.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***What are you, a Democrat? Humor is for all times and all subjects.***

Now THAT is funny!!! But there are some things that require a person to be sober. For example, were my child to die, even though I believe he would go to be with God, I would find no place in my heart for jokes at his funeral...


***I believe that there is insufficient data to form a valid, working and testable theory of the supernatural.***

Let me ask you this...

Do you believe there is an absolute difference between right and wrong?

[orionblamblam]

> were my child to die, even though I believe he would go to be with God, I would find no place in my heart for jokes at his funeral...

Well, there can be a difference between "humor" and "fall down knee-slapping funny." Many people and cultures find funerals to be times of celebration that so-and-so has gone to a better place, or whatever.

> Do you believe there is an absolute difference between right and wrong?

For some people and some topics, yes. For other people and other topics, obviously not. Theft, for example, is "clearly always morally wrong never do it uh-uh." For other people, theft is something that is sometimes a *good* thing. Stealing Soviet military secrets, for example. Stealing food to keep someone from starving to death (if the choice is between theft or death, it becomes a simple calculus).

Right and wrong are things that are defined by individuals and their cultures. Most people ahve a general built-in moral compass. Some people, however, NEED to be told that certain things are wrong... and because of that, I'm glad that they have religions to keep 'em sorta straight. Others of us simply know that some things are wrong, and don;t need to be told that if we do wrong, Invisible Sky Buddy will stomp us. You don't do wrong because... it is wrong to do wrong. Just that simple.

Few things scarier that a True Believer who either mis-interprets a passage, or who thinks they are damned, or who decides that their beliefs were wrong...

[PetroniusMaximus]

***For some people and some topics, yes... Right and wrong are things that are defined by individuals and their cultures... Others of us simply know that some things are wrong, and don;t need to be told that if we do wrong... Just that simple."

I must admit I'm not sure of your answer. You seem to be saying that right and wrong are relative, but then it seems you believe right and wrong to be universal but in an undefined way.

To clarify, let me ask you this:

Do you believe that what the Nazi's did to the Jews in the death camps was absolutely and unequivocally wrong and evil, and no matter what culture you are coming from it should be viewed as evil?

And this...

Do you believe that no matter what the culture or situation, it is absolutely wrong for a father to beat, rape and kill his two year old daughter?

[orionblamblam]

> what the Nazi's did to the Jews in the death camps was absolutely and unequivocally wrong and evil,

> it is absolutely wrong for a father
to beat, rape and kill his two year old daughter?

Well, duh.

What am I... a Democrat who needs to be shown in a Big Book Of Rules where such things are wrong?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Well, duh. What am I... a Democrat***

So you believe there is an absolute difference between right and wrong. (With the exception that sometimes it's ok to do what seems wrong for the sake of what is right.)

My next question to you is...

Will take your stand for what you know to be right and follow it wherever it may lead you?

[orionblamblam]

> So you believe there is an absolute difference between right and wrong.

Sometimes, in some things. That's why we have brains... to tell the difference based on the events and evidence. Not all possibilities can be contained within a book, no matter how well - or how vaguely - written.

> Will take your stand for what you know to be right and follow it wherever it may lead you?

I have before, and am doing so to this day. Why should I change?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I have before, and am doing so to this day. Why should I change?***

You have stated, "I believe that there is insufficient data to form a valid, working and testable theory of the supernatural" which I take to imply that you don't know whether there is a God on not due to insufficient data.

I know that there is a God, and that he answers prayers - but, of course, I would never ask you to accept my opinion.

But if I could give you a possible lead as to the existence of God and the supernatural, would you explore it with the purpose of finding out whether it was valid or not?

[orionblamblam]

> I take to imply that you don't know whether there is a God on not due to insufficient data.

Fair enough. Don't know about the existence of fairies, elves or Zeta Reticulans, either, despite the many claims.

> But if I could give you a possible lead as to the existence of God and the supernatural...

Mighty big "if." If I could turn the sky purple with yellow polka-dots, would you proclaim me the risen Elvis?

[orionblamblam]

> I take to imply that you don't know whether there is a God on not due to insufficient data.

Fair enough. Don't know about the existence of fairies, elves or Zeta Reticulans, either, despite the many claims.

> But if I could give you a possible lead as to the existence of God and the supernatural...

Mighty big "if." If I could turn the sky purple with yellow polka-dots, would you proclaim me the risen Elvis?

[thackney]

Bump for future reference

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Mighty big "if."***

Yes it is, but what do you say, yes or no...?

"If I could give you a possible lead as to the existence of God and the supernatural, would you explore it with the purpose of finding out whether it was valid or not?"

[orionblamblam]

> Yes it is, but what do you say, yes or no...?

Sure. Why not. But then... people have been trying to produce evidence of supernatural critters for millenia, and it always falls apart in the light of scrutiny. If people have failed for 6,000 years, why should I expect you to succeed? What makes *you* so special?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Sure. Why not.***


Ok, first off, here is your lead.

Jesus, in the Gospel of John named only one condition for coming to a knowledge of the existence of God,

"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Jesus Christ is making a fair proposition here. He does not ask someone to believe without evidence. He is promising that if a person chooses to do God's will then that person will come to know for sure whether God exists and whether Jesus and his teaching is from God or not.

Now this is want I want you to begin your investigation. Get alone where you won't be bothered by anyone and pray this prayer:

"God, if there is any God, show me if Jesus is your Son or not. If he is I promise to accept him as my Savior and confess him as such before the world."

That's step one. When you have done that, let me know and I'll give you step 2. (There are very few steps).

[orionblamblam]

> He is promising that if a person chooses to do God's will then that person will come to know for sure whether God exists

Circular reasoning. How would you, say, do King Arthur's will? How about Batman's will? You can't, unless you believe there is a King Arthuer or a Batman who has a will that you are to do.

> Get alone where you won't be bothered by anyone and pray this prayer:
"God, if there is any God, show me if Jesus is your Son or not.

Actually, did something very like that many years ago. No response that was any different than if I'd prayed to Superman or Allah.

Such a prayer might well work if you already believe,a nd seek confirmation. Many people have asked in prayer if there was a god or not. Most people do not get recognizable responses.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Circular reasoning. ***

The fault is with my explanation. What Jesus actually said is not circular.

"If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."


***Actually, did something very like that many years ago. No response that was any different than if I'd prayed to Superman or Allah.***

I can assure you the next steps are supremely important in this process. To get hung at this point is much like saying, "I went out to the garage, got in the car, stuck the key in the ignition... but I never went anywhere!"

***Such a prayer might well work if you already believe***

To even say that prayer is a spark of belief, even though it may be said in almost total doubt.

So the prayer... will you still pray that? What do you have to loose?

[orionblamblam]

> To even say that prayer is a spark of belief,

No, it is not. No more than saying that "there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet" *really* means I believe in Allah, or saying "the world is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth" means I'm a Creation Scientist. If I don't believe... they're just words.

> So the prayer... will you still pray that?

To what end? If I don't believe it to begin with, it is a pointless mouthing of words. But as I said... I did that once long ago, to no result.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***To what end? If I don't believe it to begin with...***

For the purpose of investigation.

My point with the car illustration was that there are other steps involved in getting somewhere besides just putting the key in the ignition - that's just the first step and it won't get you anywhere by itself.

***If I don't believe... they're just words.****

I'm not asking you to mouth words. That would be pointless. And I'm not asking you to believe in God - because I know your not sure if He exists.

I am asking you to test something and see if it turn out to be true.

I am asking you to from your heart say:

"God, if there is any God..."
(Suspension of judgment, disbelief is ok here)

"...show me if Jesus is your Son or not."
(Requires a definite result that will satisfy your doubts)

"..If he is I promise to accept him as my Savior and confess him as such before the world."
(Action you promise to take if the above turns out to be true - i.e this is related to "taking a stand for what you know to be right and follow it wherever it may lead you" we spoke of earlier.)

Now this last point is the kicker, because it is my belief that God is not interested in simply satisfying peoples curiosity. Unless there is a definite commitment to act on what one discovers to be true, this experiment would be pointless.

Let me ask you this question...

If there was a God and He showed you that Jesus Christ was in fact who he claimed to be, would you be willing to accept him as your Lord and Savior and confess him as such before the world?