Young Programmer, Stop Advocating Free Software

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[Bush2000]

Well, this is just the biggest piece of silliness I've seen in a long time. Clemens Vasters obviously doesn't understand the role of community-developed software in today's computing landscape, and how much of the internet he takes for granted was made possible by community-developed software. He also fails to notice that people contribute to software projects for other reasons than money. He also fails to notice that these community developed software projects have enabled many businesses to succeed. There's a lot that Clemens Vasters doesn't seem to understand.

Um, no. I don't have any problem with people contributing their time and resources -- but they shouldn't be blind to how their time and resources will be used. Companies like IBM are investing tens of millions of dollars in open source projects with the express desire to sell more hardware. They could care less about who you are and why you've contributed. For them, it's all about money. The Chinese and North Korean governments use open source to build out computing infrastructure for their military-industrial complexes. When you contribute to open source, you're propping up dictators in addition to the small business around the corner. Granted, some people don't care. Or they justify it by saying that, since it's available to everyone, then no harm, no foul. However, clearly, this is effort that those companies and governments would have had to expend if it weren't for your free labor. They're more free now to invest in work camps, armaments, guidance systems, and prisons. Commercial software companies aren't immune, either. They've donated tens of millions of dollars in what the average person might conclude are "kickbacks" to the Chinese government in order to do business in PRC. This is just as wrong.

I think that Clemens Vasters made some good points. It's reasonable to question why we do certain things; particularly young people, who often act without consideration of the consequences of their actions. Too many people don't understand their own motivations. Fame and/or riches are pretty shallow rewards. Even if all Vaster's letter does is promote discussion and understanding, it will have been worth writing. So don't criticize it unless you're willing to understand all sides of the issue -- not just your own narrow interests.

[ShadowAce]

This is also why we need warez.

Ex. 20:15

...and I thought the GRPL observed every verse in the bible...

[Bush2000]

Hint---Apple DOESN'T Offshore outsource!!!

Have you ever looked at an Apple motherboard, by any chance? Where do you suppose all of those transistors, resistors, DIMMs, chips, and other components come from? [Hint: It ain't the U.S.]

[blowfish]

Oh, I have no objection to the open discussion of the issues involved, I simply don't think Mr Clemens shows much awareness of the role of open-source software.
And you've raised the whole "downloading Perl lets the Chinese buy more torture-chambers" argument before, and it still doesn't wash with me. Because Microsoft is persuing the Chinese market quite aggessively; you could equally argue that every time Microsoft offers a deep discount, they also free up money for more electric cattle prods.

[Lael]

Have you ever looked at an Apple motherboard, by any chance? Where do you suppose all of those transistors, resistors, DIMMs, chips, and other components come from? [Hint: It ain't the U.S.]

Spoken like a Bush2000...

Of COURSE the mnobo is made abroad...I conceded as much on a prior post.

For what it is worth, so does the entire WINTEL Space...and they [Wintel] outsource everything else, whereas Apple and Pixar don't!!!

Spend $400 and buy a Wintel...and 2 BILLION competitors [India and China alone], or spend $2,500 for an Apple, and NEVER have to ask "Want Curry with that???

ROTFLMAO!!!

[Bush2000]

Of COURSE the mnobo is made abroad...I conceded as much on a prior post.

Phew, I'm glad you recognize this.

For what it is worth, so does the entire WINTEL Space...and they [Wintel] outsource everything else, whereas Apple and Pixar don't!!! Spend $400 and buy a Wintel...and 2 BILLION competitors [India and China alone], or spend $2,500 for an Apple, and NEVER have to ask "Want Curry with that???

If you're curry-phobic then, yes, this would be an important option. But, since the average consumer is trying to strike the best possible bargain for their hard-earned dollar, you know what's going to win in the end.

[Dominic Harr]

Hehehe.

It amuses me to no end how poorly so many of my competitors misunderstand 'open source' work.

There are 2 issues here:

• The attitude that "making money is evil".

• The concept of doing 'open-source' work.

They are *not* the same, altho you can find a small number of people who belong to both groups, just like you can find a small number of conservatives who believe the earth is flat. But making a blanket statement equating the two betrays both ignorance and fear.

Open-source is hobbyist work. Work real programmers do for a hobby. They universally fall into two groups:

1. people with jobs who don't enjoy what they build, so they do open-source for the 'fun' of it.

2. Young, learning programmers who do it for the experience and for the fun of it.

The 'open-source is communism' crowd is road-kill, in my biz.

I encourage *all* my competitors to believe that!

[Bush2000]

Oh, I have no objection to the open discussion of the issues involved, I simply don't think Mr Clemens shows much awareness of the role of open-source software.

Open-source software certainly has some positive aspects. But I think that you're ignoring the "role of open-source software" as it applies to negative [militaristic] use (i.e. China, North Korea) -- and the entire subculture of folks who write it based upon some illusion of fame.

And you've raised the whole "downloading Perl lets the Chinese buy more torture-chambers" argument before, and it still doesn't wash with me.

It's simple economics. It doesn't really matter whether you buy into it. The Chinese need to build their computing infrastructure. If you help them, they conserve more resources for other purposes.

Because Microsoft is persuing the Chinese market quite aggessively; you could equally argue that every time Microsoft offers a deep discount, they also free up money for more electric cattle prods.

I agree. And, as I pointed out in my previous post, I think this is a horrible practice. We shouldn't be trading with murderous dictators. "Opening up" their economies never translates into improved human rights. Why won't we ever learn this lesson? [Answer: Because we, as a culture, don't care. We want our cheap rubber dogsh*t from China]

[Nataku X]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you one of the biggest offshoring & H1B supporters on FR?

[Dominic Harr]

It's the funniest thing.

Open-source is a hobby, not a business. And so many who don't understand it continually criticize it as a bad business model.

Ah, well.

For people who feel threatened by the hobby of others, fear is a way of life. And those who take the time to understand the massive shifts in our biz, prosperity beacons.

[Bush2000]

I encourage *all* my competitors to believe that!

Why would men's room attendants care?

[Bush2000]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you one of the biggest offshoring & H1B supporters on FR?

Clarify.

[Nataku X]

As in, you're an advocate of offshoring and H1-Bs and see no problem with either...

[Bush2000]

As in, you're an advocate of offshoring and H1-Bs and see no problem with either...

And what does that have to do with the issue at hand?

[Nataku X]

Just curious since you're apparently very much against commie-developed software.

[Bush2000]

Just curious since you're apparently very much against commie-developed software.

I wasn't aware that India or Pakistan are communist countries /SARCASM

[Nataku X]

China, Vietnam, et al are starting to play a role in outsourcing since they're even cheaper than Indians, and many H1-Bs already do come from China/Vietnam.

[Campion]

Eh, Dominic, you forgot the third group: laid-off programmers who want to keep their skillsets in good shape.

Been there, done that.

[Bush2000]

China, Vietnam, et al are starting to play a role in outsourcing since they're even cheaper than Indians, and many H1-Bs already do come from China/Vietnam.

There's a big difference between outsourcing to democracies versus communist hellholes. I don't support the latter, no matter how much money we save.

[Nataku X]

Ah, thanks for clearing up what I perceived as an inconsistency, then... carry on. ;)