University Unveils Method to Turn Ethanol into Hydrogen

Pioneer Press ^ | Thu, Feb. 12, 2004 | DENNIS LIEN

[templar]

I thought it took more energy to produce ethanol from corn than it releases when burned.

It takes more energy to produce anything than it releases when burned.

[templar]

There seems to be some substance to this argument, since Edison's original light bulbs in his lab are still burning, without interruption some 80+ years later.

The increased longevity of a light bulb doesn't offset the line loss of DC transmission over long distances or the problem with a short circuit burning the line out all the way back to the generator instead of just at the point of contact (among others).

[undeniable logic]

But gasoline is heavily subsidized - I know this sounds crazy at first, even with the high taxes, but think about what dependence on gasoline costs our country. The whole middle east would hardly be a problem if they didn't have their massive oil revenue. Gasoline is more expensive than you think because it costs us economic security and the money from our purchase of oil helps to fund our enemies.

I don't know what the number is, but even if ethanol cost $2.00 a gallon, we are probably better off. No dependence on foreign oil, and we keep the money at home, employing American farmers, refiners, etc.

Plus, if we invest heavily in the R&D and become the pioneers, we can begin exporting the technology for a profit - either selling ethanol abroad, building plants in other countries, keeping the technology upper hand at home instead of abroad.

[XBob]

63 - "Plus, if we invest heavily in the R&D and become the pioneers, we can begin exporting the technology for a profit - either selling ethanol abroad, building plants in other countries, keeping the technology upper hand at home instead of abroad."


http://www.consumerenergycenter.com/transportation/afv/ethanol.html

Ethanol can be used as a high-octane fuel in vehicles. More than four million cars run on the fuel in Brazil as a result of a government program to make ethanol from sugar cane.

[XBob]

Henry Ford's first vehicles ran on ethanol or gasoline. Most vehicles will. However, some of the older rubbers are decomposed by ethanol. But starting in the 80's they fixed that problem.

Just pull up to the ethanol tank and fill up and go. (Though the EPA would have to recertafy).

Currently we export ethanol to Brazil.

[Axenolith]

For small items, sure, it might be cool but for large scale transport etc... it's a boondoggle. They're already running a 200 ton a day thermal depolymerization plant whose end product is diesel, natural gas, some minerals and distilled water at a Tyson plant in Missouri and the process is scaleable and runs off the feedstock (turkey guts). That process will probably be pushing out a million barrels a day by the time the first hydrogen fueling station has ground broken.

Building a complete energy source infrastructure from the ground up when you already have one in place (which isn't running out in 40 years either) is just stupidity. Hell, it would be easier and more net energy efficient to just develope a cell that would use the ethanol or just out right burn it...

[farmfriend]

Rights, farms, environment ping.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.

[Axenolith]

It's hated because some sorry assed politicians created a mandate that the entire rest of the country has to use it as a fuel oxygenate and it jacks up the price of their gas while lowering their mileage.

You're actually burning pure ethanol? There's one place near the Oakland airport here that sells that, for about $2.50 a gallon when I last saw it a few years back. Is your dodge an older carbureated one of does it have injection? I ask because you have to drill the jets in older cars while you can probably just modify the software for injection vehicles computers.

I'd love to just be able to have my car be able to take it as an alternative. Nice to have backup!

[calenel]

"But he said the new process, which strips hydrogen from both ethanol and water, doesn’t require such a pure form of ethanol."

Isn't this discussion originally about getting Hydrogen? Who cares about the Ethanol, why not just use water?

[Axenolith]

Oh, but it SAVES THE EARTH!

I s*** you not, a project I've been on and off of of late involves some work at an oil fired plant of ~150 MW. Now, I'm not one for oil fired plants either for pretty much the same reason, but I'd make and exception here because this one has wells that pump to tanks right on the property.

Rather than doing some upgrades, they're tearing it down soon because it won't be up to the maximum emission standards. They should put a municiple thermal depolymerization plant on it and dispose of garbage and generate electricity simultaneously with the sulpher free diesel grade product... At the least they should mothball it for emergencies...

[VOA]

"Intuition trancends intellect" --- Nikola Tesla.

IIRC, when Tesla was a student, he proposed to build an A/C motor.
The teacher spent something like the whole next day of lectures "proving"
that such a thing could never work.

(I'm not an electrical engineer...I hope I recalled the story correctly)

[Axenolith]

It just burns clean. Water vapor is the product of combustion.

As long as you keep it away from the other ~78% of air, nitrogen...

[AmericanVictory]

Eggzactly. A boondoggle upon a boondoggle, and more not less energy dependence and more wealth transfer to the wrong hands.

[Axenolith]

Because it takes the most energy of any hydrogen liberation concept and it's a relatively simple to understand inefficient process that can't be massaged into a mind numbing mass of gobbledygook that the voters will suck up thinking that they're "Saving the Earth Mother"...

[Free Vulcan]

because one gets hydrogen from a catalyst, the other requires energy to get the hydrogen.

[Axenolith]

Tesla was burning through other people's money.

That's a load... Tesla foreswore somewhere on the order of 12 million in royalties owed him by Westinghouse in just the first 4 years of licensing his patents. The company was trying to consolidate and they went on to make a mint AND wire the country with AC... Tesla tended to get the short end of the stick in any of his financings because he just didn't particularly care about the money in any way but what research it could facilitate...

[Moonman62]

The key word is "wire." Tesla had no interest in wiring the country for electricity. He wanted to do it wireless. As to royalties, Tesla had many such claims for which he had no proof. He claimed he was owed money from his job in Europe. He claimed Edison owed him money, and now I hear from you that Westinghouse owed him money. The fact is J. P. Morgan and Westinghouse invested money with Tesla, and he squandered it. Tesla was a great inventor, but otherwise, he had a screw loose. Some say it was because he felt responsibile for the death of a sibling in his childhood. It's a sad story and tragic, but he brought it on himself.

[Axenolith]

Westinghouses bankers, told him to ditch Tesla's royalty contract. Tesla had already taken 1 million in advances from the company on royalties and was due the prior years payment. His patents covered pretty much every aspect of AC and under his terms was due a generous royalty for nearly every item of it sold or installed.

He was eccentric for sure, but he paid off. Investments that didn't pay off from him were provided frequently because they were the equivalent of patronizing the "coolest guy" around. The bottom line is that Westinghouse and Morgan made a mint off of him over the long term. When you're pushing venture capital you don't expect more than ~20% home runs anyway...

Check out "Tesla, Man Out of Time" by Margaret Cheney, it's pretty much a definitive work.

[Moonman62]

Westinghouses bankers, told him to ditch Tesla's royalty contract. Tesla had already taken 1 million in advances from the company on royalties and was due the prior years payment. His patents covered pretty much every aspect of AC and under his terms was due a generous royalty for nearly every item of it sold or installed.

That's because Westinghouse was broke from his "current wars" with Edison. Edison was broke too and sold out to General Electric, and I imagine became a rich man. Tesla could have made a fortune had he enforced his contract, which would have led to J.P. Morgan buying out Westinghouse. I still think Tesla got a nice lump sum payment.

The bottom line is Tesla made business decisions that were as bad as some of his inventions were good. He lost his own money and the money of others. He was prone to exaggerated claims and he lied to J.P. Morgan when he said he was going to use his investment to develop radio.

One should note that Tesla is the martyr and patron saint of anti-capitalists. Many of the stories about him are one-sided, intended to portray how he was screwed by greedy capitalists. Tesla made a lot of money from capitalists in his lifetime and he lost it all.

[fella]

Instead of going through all that frufrah why not just make a few adjustments to a car and put the ethenol in it of course the 2 dollar a gallon tax would have to go and the open container laws.