Pilot in Hot Water for Allegedly Using Plane as Flying Pulpit

Talon News / GOP USA ^ | Feb. 10, 2004 | Jeremy Reynalds

[Modernman]

Good post.

[Modernman]

Even Christians now think that there is a time and a place to even mention their faith, and that it's inappropriate under certain circumstances. I don't think it's EVER inappropriate to mention it, or to ask if others are Christian.

That's the basis of our disagreement. You see this as an issue of religion, I see this as an issue of privacy. Some topics, such as religion, sex or politics are not issues that one should be bringing up spontaneously with strangers. You say that talking about your faith is never innapropriate. Homosexual activists say talking about their sex life is never innapropriate.

Again, the simple question that needs to be answered is: if you were a passenger on a flight and a gay pilot told all the homosexuals to raise their hands and called everyone else "crazy," would you be upset? Just as you probably consider a stranger talking to you about their sexual preferences as innapropriate, others consider strangers quizzing them on their religion innapropriate. It's not a question of right and wrong. It's a question of good and bad manners.

[jim35]

"...Well, I'm not sure how much it's worth discussing with you,..."

It is definitely worth discussing. I'm not dense, just passionate in my support for free religious expression, even by someone on the job. And I'm very unhappy about the stifling of it by liberal judges, the ACLU, and democrat politicians.

"...So it would seem that the airlines, while not wanting to release their exact policies, do, in fact, prohibit behavior like this..."

This is no great surprise. And I don't disallow the ability of corporations to limit the speech of their employees, to a certain degree. Nobody wants an employee who is going to scare off business. I just believe that religious speech has historically been quite mundane, but that due to the recent secularist upsurge, has now become, quite wrongly, very controversial. I find this upsetting, and will continue to support such speech under almost any circumstance.

[Modernman]

Because if you answered yes to ANY of these questions, you can bet that it won't last. The ACLU, in conjunction with the court system, will soon put a stop to it. I think you are blind, atlaw, to all that is going on around you to stifle public displays/utterances of Christianity, or else you are in favor of it.

The usual parade of horribles. Look, I guess we have a different perception of what "public utterances" encompass. Some of the things you listed are things reasonable people can disagree upon (I'm opposed to any type of religious displays on public grounds because I want no government involvement whatsoever in religion). However, the fact of the matter is you are free to pray, preach, read a Bible or whatever pretty much anywhere you want. You point out the half dozen or so exceptions and consider that to be persecution.

[jim35]

"...You see this as an issue of religion,..."

No, I see it as an issue of freedom.

"...Some topics, such as religion, sex or politics are not issues that one should be bringing up spontaneously with strangers..."

That depends on how you phrase it. Dirty jokes are inappropriate in scenarios where a simple comment on a person's appearance may not be. A partisan political comment is inapproptiate where a comment on the general tone of an election may not be. And a forced revival in front of a captive audience is inappropriate where a simple comment or question may not be. Apparently, most of you have a very low threshhold for what is appropriate in a religious context.

"...Homosexual activists say talking about their sex life is never innapropriate..."

You don't see a difference between asking who is a Christian, as opposed to discussing perverse sexual behaviour? I think you really do see a difference, so why use such a comparison? Surely you can think of a better one.

"...It's not a question of right and wrong. It's a question of good and bad manners..."

So you think it's bad manners to ask who is a Christian. Ok. I don't. Obviously I'm in the minority, if even FReepers feel this way. No problem. As a conservative I'm quite used to this. You should see the look on people's faces when I mention that I listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read Ann Coulter's books. BTW, has anyone here read "Persecution," by David Limbaugh? If you had, maybe you'd rethink your positions. Or maybe not. I know it certainly opened my eyes. And no, it didn't brainwash me into becoming a rabid proselytiser of Christianity, in case you were wondering.

[jim35]

"...This guy should have been concentrating on managing the airplane..."

This is silly. Do you really think that the pilot's two statements were so all-consuming that he was then unable to concentrate on flying the plane? Nonsense, thermalseeker. Using your logic, a pilot couldn't ask for a cup of coffee without lapsing into a coma afterward. Try again.

[jim35]

"...You point out the half dozen or so exceptions and consider that to be persecution..."

You mean that you don't? Are you a conservative? Just curious, since it's certainly not obvious.

[Modernman]

You don't see a difference between asking who is a Christian, as opposed to discussing perverse sexual behaviour? I think you really do see a difference, so why use such a comparison? Surely you can think of a better one.

I don't really see a difference because I'm not concerned about WHAT is being said in either case. I'm trying to make the point that a reasonable person should know that many people are uncomfortable talking about either subject with a stranger. You might not be comfortable with talking about homosexuality with a stranger, I might not be comfortable talking religion with a stranger. The 80 year-old grandmother sitting next to you might be uncomfortable talking about either. That's why, when striking up a conversation with a stranger, a courteous person will avoid certain subjects.

[Modernman]

You mean that you don't? Are you a conservative? Just curious, since it's certainly not obvious.

No right is absolute, simply stated. I can come up with exceptions to any right or the exercise thereof (you have the right to bear arms, you cannot exercise that right by shooting cans in your backyard in a residential neighborhood) that are perfectly acceptable from a conservative viewpoint. Like I said, I don't see it as persecution if a right is limited 1% or so of the time.

[jim35]

You are not a real FReeper, modernman. I suspect that you are a DU troll with a 1 year history. This is my last response to you. To other FReepers; read modernman's "about" page. It should say it all. The man is a lefty. No problem personally, since I am a DU troll, but don't try to engage me in debate again. AMF.

[Modernman]

To other FReepers; read modernman's "about" page. It should say it all.

Sigh. If you don't get the humor in the quotes on my profile page, that puts you in the minority when it comes to FReepers.

And like I said to you privately, please feel free to contact the mods if you think I'm a DU plant.

[atlaw]

"As a conservative I'm quite used to this. You should see the look on people's faces when I mention that I listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read Ann Coulter's books. BTW, has anyone here read "Persecution," by David Limbaugh? If you had, maybe you'd rethink your positions. Or maybe not."

"You are not a real FReeper, modernman. I suspect that you are a DU troll with a 1 year history. This is my last response to you. To other FReepers; read modernman's 'about' page. It should say it all. The man is a lefty."

NEWSFLASH: jim35, a man who believes himself to be a horribly oppressed and persecuted Christian, also believes himself to be the only true conservative in America. He can presently be found at FreeRepublic, where he is attmepting to educate the ignorant liberals on that forum about the nuances of righteous conservative thought. A self-proclaimed "literary lion" and "constitutional scholar," jimbo is easy to spot among the leftist morons at FR. He's the one with the beet red face and the bulging veins in his neck, pointing his finger at you. Yes you.

[jim35]

Good news from all your friends at the DU; they wholeheartedly agree with you! Here's a post from that site:


"...question everything (361 posts) Thu Feb-12-04 12:15 PM
Original message
Preachy pilot needs new flight plan- Paynter, Seattle PI


The separation of church and flight hit another air pocket last week when the pilot of an American Airlines 767, an apparently fervent fellow with God as his co-pilot, followed his weather/altitude spiel by asking all Christians aboard to raise their hands.

(snip)

But surely, in the nervous and multiculturally touchy time since Sept. 11, you've got to wonder if pilot Rodger Findiesen's brain didn't experience a sudden loss of cabin pressure during takeoff from Los Angeles Friday.

(snip)

It wouldn't have been appropriate even before we started eyeing each other's turbans and yarmulke's warily across the aisles. And it sure isn't appropriate now.

(snip)

This is a time when, even unspoken, those little biblical prayer cards that Alaska Airlines slips in with the plastic silverware tend to polarize the frequent fliers who praise reverence among the condiments from those who resent getting a prayer like a Cracker Jack prize.

(snip)

If Capt. Findiesen believes he is on a mission from God, amen to that. Let him go forth and plant the seeds of understanding where the ears have the choice of whether to listen. And where the guy telling people to put their hands up isn't flying tons of combustible metal through the clouds..."

End DU snippet.


No, I'm not the only conservative in America, but I am one of them, and I do know when an issue is worthy of a conservative's response, and when that response is NOT so conservative.

[spetznaz]

No, I see it as an issue of freedom. So you think it's bad manners to ask who is a Christian. Ok. I don't. Obviously I'm in the minority, if even FReepers feel this way. No problem. As a conservative I'm quite used to this. You should see the look on people's faces when I mention that I listen to Rush Limbaugh, and read Ann Coulter's books. BTW, has anyone here read "Persecution," by David Limbaugh? If you had, maybe you'd rethink your positions. You are not a real FReeper, modernman. I suspect that you are a DU troll with a 1 year history. This is my last response to you. To other FReepers; read modernman's "about" page. It should say it all. The man is a lefty. No problem personally, since I am a DU troll, but don't try to engage me in debate again. AMF.

Hi Jim35, it's me again. I wrote post no. 209 specifically to you because this thread was degrading into a slugfest over nothing. Virtually all the freepers in this thread are not criticizing the pilot for what he did .....it is where he did it. And there is a right way to spread the word. Shooting it forth from the hip is bound to make people not even listen in the first place. For example, in this case, i can assure you not even one person turned to Christ after what the pilot said ...why? They were scared to the core (you should ahve seen the Fox news report on this ...those guys were frightened). This thread is not assaulting Christianity .....it is basically saying a professional acted in an unprofessional manner, and in the process caused a great deal of consternation to all the passengers involved.

As i said in post 209 what the pilot should have done is wait until he landed at the destination, and then tell the passengers that if any wanted to hear about his mission trip (that would perfectly lead to sharing about Christ) that they should meet him outside the plane in the terminal. Simple. No one gets scared. However for the pilot to tell the passengers to say who is Christian, and that those who are not are crazy, and doing this BEFORE TAKEOFF, that is no wise.

Christians have to be wise. Christ was wise. Even when talking to the dregs of society (eg when he was talking to prostitutes and tax collectors) he did not just go around calling people crazy, and that they need to rep themselves. No. He approached them with respect and consideration, and consequently they listened and decided for themselves what they themselves needed to do. Same thing with school teachers ....they do not tell the not-as-bright kids that they are crazy and need to chat with the A students. No ....they use wisdom.

Hence this is not a thread about religion Jim35. It is a thread about propriety, decorum, prudence, and knowing the right time and right way to do something. Remember, what you say is as important as how you say it, and if i am sharing the word, or trying to seal a multi-million dollar fiscal deal, i always ensure that i employ paramount sagacity in the process. Otherwise i am just flapping my gums at best, and at worst alienating people.

Trust me ....many of those passengers probably thought the pilot was akin to Jim Jones of the Jamestown massacre, and was probably some 'fundamentalist' who was going to introduce them to his maker by turning the plane into a 600mph lawndart. They were scared .

Hence there is no need to attack freepers who say the pilot was wrong. They are not DU trolls or liberals for saying so. Honestly the pilot may have been doing the right thing .....but it was the wrong place and the wrong time, and definitely in the wrong manner. He should have waited until the plane landed, and then announced that any interested passenger who wanted to know about his missionary trip to South America meet him at this-and-that terminal. Any person who decided to meet him would then be told about the trip, and then be told about Christ.

Christianity is not about shoving ideology down a person's throat, nor about pseudo-trapping them in an aluminun cylinder flying at 600mph 30,000 feet up, nor about indoctrination. That is the way of Islam. Christianity is about sharing the gospel with those willing to listen, and then letting them decide for themselves whether they wanted to accept Christ or not. If yes then talk to them more and help them. If not wish them a blessed day and let them go in peace. Trust me ...people respect that and want to know more. The moment people feel threatened or forced, barriers pop up faster than you can say 'abracadabra' and suddenly you might as well be talking to a granite wall.

[jim35]

"... jimbo is easy to spot among the leftist morons at FR. He's the one with the beet red face and the bulging veins in his neck, pointing his finger at you. Yes you..."

What's wrong... run out of logical refutations? Now you have to resort to ad hominem attacks? Somehow, I'm not surprised, though I am a bit disappointed. BTW, read modernman's 'about' page. It's very enlightening. The quotes are very much anti-conservative, and if they're tongue-in-cheek, it looks to be for the purpose of discrediting conservatives. His tactics remind me of the ones I use on the DU, where I try to stir up the sh*t among the commies. I don't mind if their trolls try the same thing here, but I'm not about to fall for it.

[atlaw]

Very well said. But I am afraid it will fall on deaf ears.

[EggsAckley]

Hey! You took the works right offa my fingers!

Heheheh.

[jim35]

Once again, for the fourth time, let me reiterate. IF the pilot's message was such that it would engender panic in an average group, under average flight conditions, then his message was ill-conceived, at least in it's timing. I don't believe that his message was so poorly timed that this was the case, I believe a pre-conditioned anti-Christian bias in the general populace is what caused the shock, i.e., anyone who espouses their religion publicly is a fanatic, therefore the pilot is a fanatic, therefore, we're all doomed. This is not something to be embraced, it is something to be fought. How many times, just in this one post, have I been referred to as a kook, or a fanatic? Automatically, it's assumed that I'm some kind of religious zealot because I stand up for free expression of one's religion, even in the workplace, even if you're a pilot. You all act as if he carried on some sort of enforced tent-revival, when all he did was make one comment, and ask who was a Christian. One poster even said he wouldn't blame the passengers if they beat the $hiot out of the senile old fool. So if I'm out of step with this kind of belief, I'm ok with that.

[atlaw]

Give it a rest jim. Frankly, your combination of self-righteousness and self-proclaimed intelligence makes for lousy debate. And as for ad hominem, I don't see anyone else on this thread making accusations about "DU trolls."

[jim35]

"...If not(,) wish them a blessed day and let them go in peace..."

Do you think you'd be able to get away with wishing the general public a "blessed day?" You'd be fired by many companies for that, as have some other employees. And yes, some posters have assualted Christianity, like the one who said "you have a stupid god" (see #173). But my point is, once again, that there was a gross overreaction to a simple query about Christianity, followed by one comment on the subject, and that I'm sorry that even FReepers can't see this. It speaks volumes about the ongoing struggle between Christians and secular humanists. Christians are losing.