Unruly Students Facing Arrest, Not Detention

NY Times ^ | January 4, 2004 | SARA RIMER

[redheadtoo]

When Rudy Gulliani(sp?) first started arresting pan handlers and having the police give citations to landlords who did not fix broken windows I thought he was crazy. After all New York had too many major problems for the authorities to be dealing with such small concerns. But, Rudy had good scientific theory behind his actions.

Now look at the results. Time Square is cleaned up and the crime rate has dropped dramatically. Deal with the small problems and the big ones take care of themselves. Bravo to the school district for arresting this snotty little twit. I bet she doesn't pull this stunt again.

[Biblebelter]

I am not sure that you can maintain order in any environment,when you are dealing with individuals who have no respect for authority, no fear of authority, and they cannot be humiliated because they have no shame. The question is where do you place sociopaths. We placed one in the Oval Office and society is still paying for that mistake.

[baylorbaylor]

We as a society should stop babying these punks. If they break the law they or there parents should be held accountable. No more excuses. In school or out we have rules and laws and they need to be obeyed. The sooner these overgrown babies learn that the better.

[Starwolf]

We are having a reverse problem at the high school my daughter goes to. New principal with a clearly macho attitude. He came from an inner city area and this is a suburban school so its not going over very well. He has taken to bringing in retired street cops as "safety advocates" and getting them emergency teaching credentials so they get paid at a higher rates, which has annoyed the NEA types (a mixed blessing).

Daughter witnessed one of the safety advocates gratuitously manhandle another student, leaving mild injuries. Turns out it was mistaken identity. He roughed up the salutatorian and well known good kid, thinking it was another kid. My understanding is that a private apology was issued. A number of parents have heard about the incident and are waiting for the next event. If he does something similar to my daughter without cause, we won't sue, but will file a criminal complaint. Some of us are working to run the new principal out at the end of the year.

As a former teacher I know how rough it can be in the public schools, but in some cases the overreaction is just as bad.

[neverdem]

I was initially thinking of including a comment about how the court system has some responsibility for this mess, but I forgot.

I like how the author tries to make guns and school shootings responsible for zero tolerance policies, but you can trace the problem with discipline in schools back to the 19660's and the counter-culture BS.

[FITZ]

Zero-tolerance policies teach kids that the United States is NOT the land of the free.

It depends maybe on the school and the type of student. If you live in an area of high gang activity, it's best if there is zero tolerance so the gangs are out on the street or in jails and prisons where they belong --- some of these kids don't belong in school at all. If a kid thinks school is where they go to deal drugs or fight --- then they have no good reason to be there and ruin the other kids' chance at an education.

[FITZ]

It's good to have zero tolerance plus alternative schools. Here if a kid brings a gun to school, drugs to deal, gets in a gang fight they're kicked out. They can still go to an alternative school --- but then there are some heavy rules --- parents must bring them and pick them up, parents must meet with the teachers any time the teacher requests, the kids must wear uniforms. If the parent doesn't wish to do any of this --- then the kid is out of school.

[itsahoot]

Bravo to the school district for arresting this snotty little twit. I bet she doesn't pull this stunt again.

Alternative School was called "Reform School" in my day.

Reading, writing and arithmetic
taught to the tune of a hickory stick.

Worked well until the fifties, then liberalism started running amok.

School consolidation removed neighborhood schools and destroyed communities. But then again you have much better football teams. :(

[logan]

parents must bring them and pick them up, parents must meet with the teachers any time the teacher requests, the kids must wear uniforms. If the parent doesn't wish to do any of this --- then the kid is out of school.

And that's where the real hard questions start. How do you encourage good parenting, and what do you do with the kids who just weren't lucky enough to get it?

[markman46]

the only problem with giving the kid a good smack is,the kids report you and get into the system and you as a parent have to prove you are a good parent. I would have never talked back to my parents either, or a nuckle sandwich would have been the result.

[rockrr]

"I'm 57 years old and went through 12 years of elementary/junior high/high school without once ever seeing a policeman inside a school building, let alone having a student arrested."

I was a student at Rainier Beach High School in Seattle back in '68 when a bunch a hoods calling themselves "Black Panthers" attempted to invade the school. I saw more than just a policeman!

[Tacis]

The 54% minority account for 65% of the problems? Using the courts to fix the problems will not last long with those numbers.

I'd be more interested in the data on singlr parent homes vs. mother/father homes. My bet is that the brave and wonderful single moms that Oprah has deified are doing more damage to our society than anyone has ever dreamed. Want a round of applause on daytime TV? Just identify yourself as having 4 kids and being a single mom!

[Tim Osman]

If you teach kids that they have no rights whatsoever, then kids will eventually view, as they grow older, that their elders and peers are undeserving of rights as well.

Zero-tolerance policies teach kids that the United States is NOT the land of the free.

Very good analysis. What can be done about it? I think US schools have passed the point of no return on this one...

I myself believe that public schooling should NOT be compulsary, but if it is going to be, students should be afforded full rights as citizens under the constitution. If you make someone go to a building all day long, indoctrinate them all day statist propaganda, curtail their rights while they are there, and threaten them with arrest if they fail to attend...

Isn't that basically slavery?

[WOSG]

"Expectations matter."

This is true.

It's why the end of corporal punishment has inevitably led to this. If you expect kids to be disciplined and behave and insist on it in ways that lead to certain punishment for unruly behavior, you dont get unruly behavior. I speak as a father of 3 who has kids others marvel at. I am told they behave extremely well. Indeed. I marvel at how parents decide to let kids run wild and ruin their own lives, rather than take a small effort and insist kids live up to certain standards. It is in the end healthiest for the kids, parents, and others. But we dont do it out of a misbegotten 'concern' that discipline will somehow kill the 'spirit' (to do evil, mischief, and nonsense).

If you miseducate kids with Disney movies and other pap that tells them "just do it" is okay and kids are smarter than adults, and that misbehavior is okay and 'expected' ... well, you get what you expect: Kids who think they can talk back to any and all authority figures without consequence.

We've raised millions of kids that way in the past 2 decades , with parents willing accomplices of this mis-education, and the article above is a natural consequence.

"unless you come down on them so hard it breaks their natural rebeliousness." Uh, there is nothing natural about rebeliousness, that's another liberal myth. All behaviors that are not based on self-interest and our innate conscience are learned. When rebelliousness is made harmful to the kid, they tend not to rebel. If you doubt this, just visit other cultures (eg Japan) where expectations are vastly different wrt conformity.

[WOSG]

"Kids now don't consider the costs because they don't have to bear them. We have to reinstate costs that the students alone must pay. Until we do, there will be students who won't behave."

Well said.

[SoftballMominVA]

And that's where the real hard questions start. How do you encourage good parenting, and what do you do with the kids who just weren't lucky enough to get it?

Well, once a student is kicked out of his home school district the family has the following choices:

Attend a nearby county and pay the out of county tuition. In my county in rural VA, the amount is $3,330 per semester.

Attend a military/private/Catholic school.

Home-school

BTW, I'd bet dollars to donuts this was not the first time this girl had tangled with the school. She even says she likes to get back in their faces. I agree with the school's action. That child made a conscious decision when she dressed in the morning. As far as her rights? I'd like to see someone who works in an office with a written dress code go to work dressed outrageously and in defiance. Rules are rules whether it's school or work.

[JamesA]

Good...thats about it....

[ladylib]

We don't need highly paid school administrators anymore. A clerical worker can make the judgment and pick up a phone and call the cops.

Since zero-tolerance came into being, vice principals are no longer necessary.

[Paul C. Jesup]

You're believing the propaganda, zero-tolerance was put there because priciples and teachers are to lazy to do their jobs and want a one style solution to all problem, which never works.

Zero-tolerance rules are akin to sentencing a starving man to life in prison for stealing a loaf of bread.

[Paul C. Jesup]

I feel all this regulation will bankrupt and collapse this country's government and economic systems sooner than anyone else thinks. And maybe then things will start to change for the better.