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Off-duty cop kills gunman (Chicago)
Chicago Sun-Times ^

Posted on 11/16/2003 9:33:18 AM PST by Petruchio

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To: Abe Froman
I think the profession of law enforcement attracts people with personalities prone to power-tripping and a need to dominate others

I cannot apply that generality to every cop I see. My son is a policeman and I know he isn't that way.

He told me a story a few months ago that illustrates that point.

He was taking a drunk to the county jail a distance of about ten miles from the city where he is a policeman. The drunk with his hands cuffed behind him sitting in the back seat started spitting on him through the grate that seperates the back seat from the front. This happend about 3:00AM in a semi rural area. I asked my boy what he did and he said he stopped the car got the drunk out, laid him face down on the ground and cuffed his ankles to the cuffs on his hands, thereby "hog tying" him. Then he tossed him face down in the back seat where he couldn't spit on him anymore for the duration of the trip. My son did not charge him with the additional crime of assult, he said the guy had enough trouble already.

Anyone witnessing that scene may have thought "police brutality", I call it remarkable restraint. He didn't learn that remarkable restraint from his father I can assure you. It comes from having character - you either have it or you don't. My son has it.

181 posted on 11/18/2003 2:16:36 PM PST by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58
If you're dealing with a drunk then you need to take drastic measures sometimes. I don't fault him for taking the action he did in this instance. However it's dealing with sober non-criminals that the mentality shows up. Case in point----a guy with his new CCW permit took a local TV station out with him to film the police reaction to his openly carrying. To their credit, most cops gave him strange looks but didn't hassle him, and a couple of them asked to see his permit. One, however, went right up to him, spun him around, and told him to assume the position while he was disarmed and frisked. Only after a lenghty detainment and a check of his permit was his gun returned and he was let go. That cop should be charged and booked with false imprisonment under color of law. One might hope that eventually there might be enough permitted people walking around that they would come to the aid of that hapless citizen, disarm, and detain that cop with a citizen's arrest. It's wishful thinking but that's the way it should be.

Again I'm not accusing all cops of this, but in my dealings with police, the cop is an arrogant pri** much more often than in my dealings with the general population. I have a hard time seeing how walking around with a badge and a gun, especially when virtually no other citizens may be similarly armed, would NOT give you a superiority complex.
182 posted on 11/18/2003 11:01:06 PM PST by Abe Froman
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To: Graybeard58
He didn't learn that remarkable restraint from his father I can assure you. It comes from having character - you either have it or you don't. My son has it.

On the contrary, I think such behavior is learned, although everyone has their genetic predispositions towards certainly personality traits as well. If he didn't learn it or "get" it from you, he did from his mother. Probably both, singly and jointly. I'm sure you are as proud of your son as I am of my daughters (and one of them is a lawyer, which makes it particularly noteworthy that she is still quite deserving of her father's pride.)

183 posted on 11/18/2003 11:04:19 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: rpd35
ok constitution 101 guy, the supreme court (ever heard of them?) defines the "right to keep and bear arms" defines that to mean being part of a WELL REGULATED MILITIA...... class dismissed.

Not hardly. The last time they ruled directly on the subject, they ruled that a district court judge should not have ruled without taking evidence that keeping and bearing a short barreled shotgun could have some relationship to the maintaince of a well-regulated militia. This dispite the fact that about the same time the law in question, the 1934 National Firearms Act was being passed, US Marnines were making good use of such weapons in the jungles of Central Amercia in the so called Bananana Wars, State National Guards, as well as police, prison and military guards in various places. The first court that used that "Miller" decision stated that if the decision were taken as being a rule (which is what Supreme Court decisions are usually considered) then no modern weaponry would be ban-able, because virtually everything had seem some use in resistance movements in Europe. Y'all can read the cases for yourselves. Miller and Cases (Can I help it if the case was from Puerto Rico and the no goodniks name was "KA SAYS" :)?

In both cases, the discussion of the right to keep and bear arms as protected by the Second Amendment clearly indicates that the right is an individual one, (i.e. A right of the people, just like it says).

From "Miller" Which is the last time the Supreme Court ruled directly on the Second Amendment:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

...

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.

The Government argued in their brief, as you do, that the right is one belonging only to the organized state Militia. The court didn't even mention that position in it's decision. The case was apparently decided based on that Aymette referance, which is a pre civil war state court decision, from a state whose RKBA provison includes the words "for the common defense", something that ws proposed in the Senate for what became the Second Amendment, but rejected. Of course there was no oppossing coucil to make that point to the court, only one side of the issue was briefed to or heard by the court. I guarantee it won't be that way the next time the Court hears a second amendment case.

From "Cases":

the rule of the Miller case, if intended to be comprehensive and complete would seem to be already outdated, in spite of the fact that it was formulated only three and a half years ago, because of the well known fact that in the so called "Commando Units" some sort of military use seems to have been found for almost any modern lethal weapon. In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities, -almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,-is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute. Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result.

Of course that's exactly what they intended. In their day private ownership of cannon and ships armed with cannon (pretty much the ultimate weapon of the day) was not uncommon. The Constitution recognizes these privately owned warships, which were part of no militia, in it's provision providing for Congress the power to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal" (Art 2 sec. 8) A letter of Marque is a "hunting license" to hunt down and sink or capture merchant shipping of an enemy power, all the major and many minor nations, like the fledgling US) issued them at the time. The reward was getting to keep or sell the booty taken from captures.

184 posted on 11/18/2003 11:42:27 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Petruchio
You are being just as bad as the media!!! Both you, and the media, state something as truth before you get the facts straight!!! HERE is what you missed! 1. LEO or as the state of Illinois calls them, Peace Officers, are exempt from ILCS 5-24-1. If you would have looked a little further to 5-24-2 you would see this before going off half cocked!
2. It's up to each P.D. whether or not they allow off duty carrying privileges. Peace officers (LEO) can lawfully carry off duty in the state of Illinois!
3. This said, the P.D. that allows it, is held responsible for the officers off duty action!!
4. Just so you know, I am not a cop, I just know how to do my home work before crying wolf! On that note I would also like to say I think citizens SHOULD be allowed to carry guns.....excluding major cities like Chicago and Springfield....because let face it those that are untrained and didn't grow up with guns will end up shooting themselves or some Innocent person!!
185 posted on 03/18/2006 7:08:13 PM PST by Rogman83 (Petruchio Get Your Facts Straight!!!!!!!!)
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To: Rogman83

*Yawn*

Do you always drag up threads from 3 years ago? My points remain valid, there should not be a special protected class in our society.

Period.

Currently there are 2 protected classes in Chicago. Off duty LEOs and gang bangers. Frankly, I see no difference between 'em.


186 posted on 03/19/2006 7:45:47 AM PST by Petruchio ( ... .--. .- -.-- / .- -. -.. / -. . ..- - . .-. / .. .-.. .-.. . --. .- .-.. / .- .-.. .. . -. ...)
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