Posted on 11/09/2003 7:36:25 PM PST by holy joe
Crusades? Before you claim the Crusaders murdered Jews you need a little history lesson. There were many Crusades, eight in all I believe. Some European Jews were killed by a wild, unruly gang of Christians during an unsanctioned, unorganized "people's crusade" that occurred before the first military Crusade into Islam. This unruly mob included many criminals, drunkards, and mostly low brow types with no military plan, only a handful of Knights amongst their leadership and no rule of law. They included men, women and children, and they were "armed" with clubs, pitch forks and axes. When they finally arrived in Islam they were butchered instantly, tens of thousands of them, and this mob of criminals received thier just deserts.
The first real military Crusade took place a short time later, when an estimated 500,000 trained Knights, cavalry and foot soldiers left to protect Western Europe from imminent Islamic invasion. (Islam had just crushed the entire Greek Army 20 years earlier at Manzikert, and had nothing to stop them now from entering Western Europe with their hordes of crazed horsemen).
By the time these weary, depleted and utterly battered Crusaders finally reached Jerusalem there were only about 15,000 left of the original 1/2 million men. They suffered horrendous losses by enemy attack, starvation and thirst, sickness and the severe elements. At Jerusalem they found the city heavily fortified with tens of thousands of Mohammedan soldiers.
Included in these forces were another small army of huge Black soldiers, mercinaries imported from Africa to help slaughter the Crusaders. After several frantic attempts to scale the walls to take the city failed, and the Crusaders took yet more horrendous losses, they regrouped outside the walls of Jerusalem overnight and prepared for another assault. This final assault they knew could not fail, or else they would be destroyed. Any survivors would have to return to Europe in defeat.
After marching for thousands of miles in enemy territory, and suffering unspeakable losses, these relatively few remaining Crusaders were in a savage mental state. Do or die. Kill or be killed. They attacked once more, this time in a feverous battle pitch that literally horrified the city's defenders. They scaled the walls and fought like demons, killing anyone and anything in front of them. The Mohammedans and the huge, muscular Black defenders fell like flies. The Crusaders penetrated the city's defenses and went from building to building to slaughter whomever they saw. There was no retreat, no stopping to think or to rest. It was a route, and indeed became a slaughter. It is well recorded that the Crusader's leaders tried vainly to prevent the killing of civilians and innocents. But the loss of 97% of their men in battle, or to sickness, the months and months of marching through rugged, hostile, trecherous land, all these events put the surviving Crusaders into a brutal battle state and there was no stopping them in their final assault.
Yes, Jews died on this day, but to claim it was planned, or was done with forethought and malice, to call them murderers is not quite true. Once you know all the circumstances then you understand that it's unfair to claim their intention was to murder Jews.
It is historical fact that centuries later many Jews fought side by side with the Mohammedans when they conquered Christian Spain, and helped them to suppress Christianity. Perhaps you care to explain this, since you have decided to talk about ancient history.
Dodge? That some Jews died as incidental victims during the Crusades is a fact, but they were not the target of the Crusades. This was still the Dark Ages, and many of the Crusaders were brutal soldiers. This was the world back then. In fact, during the Fourth Crudade, the Crusaders attacked and destroyed Constantinople, and killed many thousands of their fellow Greek Christians. They did this on their own, however, not as representatives of the Church. The entire Crusading army was excommunicated by the Pope.
The Popes in those days had long since lost their temporal power over Kings and European Provinces, and most of the Crusaders were private armies from Gaul, loyal only their "Kings" and fuedal 'Lords'. Much of what they did was on their own initiative, and when they diverged from their mission of freeing Jerusalem the Popes had no power whatsover to stop them. History must always be viewed from the times the events occurred in. It's a sleazy trick to try to judge events from the Dark Ages by today's standards. But judging from the putrid, vile hatred that spews from the mouths of the ADL regarding Mel Gibson, I have come to expect the b.s. to get deeper and deeper.
While we are on the subject of ancient history, perhaps you would like to tell us why so many Jews fought alongside Muslims when they invaded, killed and conquered Catholic Spain?
Get real, you have tunnel vision. This film will stir up anti Semitism abroad. Why should you care? You aren't Jewish and don't have to live with that crap.
The Passion will rile them up same as you are riled up here at big ol' bad guy Abe Foxman. Bon apetite!
Here we go again! One more time, with feeling!
Ahem! First off, that a CAPITAL first letter for all proper names. (Sorry, I know Appalachia is a little "behind" with the English language -- I forgive you).
Now, where was I -- oh, yes yes yes -- that evil Blessed Virgin Mary and that evil evil pope who (cue laugh track) is devoted to Mary and NOT Jesus Christ!
Class? Eyes on me.
Co-redemptrix: The salvation of the world could not have taken place without Mary's FREE WILL decision to be the Mother of God ("let it be done unto me according to Thy word"). No Mary, no Jesus, no cross. This was God's plan from eternity. She assisted in the redemption. She is not equal according to any stretch of Catholic theology.
The same charge Christ laid against the Jews, that 'they replaced the doctrine of God with the tradition of man' could be applied to the catholic church in that they replaced the doctrine of God with the traditions of their 'church'.
You mean like Sunday services and celebrating such evil Catholic traditions like Christmas and Easter?
I have a friend who spent several years in a catholic convent studying to become a num. While there, the students weren't allowed to have a bible in their possession and there was only one bible available for them to read and it was kept under lock and key. They had to obtain special permission to read it and had to specify exactly what VERSE they wanted to read and were accompanied to ensure that they could only read that single verse.
I have a friend that says your friend is lying.
I have some missionary friends to South America that told me about the catholics persecution of Christians in South America even to the point of provoking physical attacks up to and including murder of Protastant missionaries
And they certaintly wouldn't just make something like that up.
Sigh.
"This Gospel will stir up anti-Phariseeism abroad..."
My observation is that Abe Foxman is riling up more people than Mel Gibson's unfinished, unreleased, movie is. I'm sorry you have this fear and hatred for Chrisitians, it must be hard to live with it.
By the way, I am curious to know exactly which "third world" Christian nation you have in mind that will rise up against their Jewish population and smite them after watching Mel Gibson's movie? Care to elaraborte a bit more or do you choose to leave this nebulous nation unnamed and ambiguous?
I'm beginning to find this whole bogus 'concern' rather humorous. The more I think about it, the more transparent Abe Foxman and his ilk become. ~ It will be hard for the ADL to continue disguising their hatred for Christians underneath this transparent veil for very long.
LOL! I must be suffering from fear and hatred because I disagree with you. Hahahahahaha. That's how Democrats like to talk. Amusing coming from you, having conniption fits over Abe Foxman because he differs from you on Passion. "How dare that dang Jew try to put a crimp in Passion!!!"
And many freepers join you in this mass epileptic fit. Let it all hang out dudes!
You talk like it's Jews and only only Jews who have to live with persecution for their religious beliefs. Have you been on any secular college campus lately? The Jewish populations there are encouraged to flourish, while there is a heavy sentiment of Christiphobia among most of the faculty.
Check out the record down through the centuries. Jews have been persecuted by Christendom and by Islam. When has the opposite occurred? There are too few Jews to pull it off.
Have you been on any secular college campus lately?
The Jewish populations there are encouraged to flourish.
That is complete and utter nonsense. Many campuses have constant agitation and demonstrations against Israel and Zionism
while there is a heavy sentiment of Christiphobia among most of the faculty.
You are correct there. By and large campuses have a secular anti religious atmosphere.
While I myself am pro-Israel, being against Israel doesn't necessarily amount to the same thing as anti-Semitism. And people of Jewish faith on college campuses aren't looked down on for their religion nearly as much as Christians are.
Of course, I've yet to meet a real Orthodox Jew at my school, so...
Unintended consequences?
St. Paul was a Zealot who made a career out of terrorizing Christians. The Christian Church wasn't persecuted en masse by the Romans until Nero.
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