We were duped about Okla. bombing

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review ^ | Monday, July 15, 2002 | Ralph R. Reiland

[PhilDragoo]

It always seemed unreal to me that McVeigh would have the expertise to build such an effective bomb.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, THE SECRET LIFE OF BILL CLINTON: the unreported stories, Regnery, 1997, 'The Oklahoma Bombing: "Our Common Ground"', Chapter Five "Carol Howe", page 67:

The FBI crime labs had concluded that the Murrah Building was destroyed by a 4,800-pound ammonium nitrate bomb, and here [FBI informant Dennis Mahon] was one of the few living Americans with the technical expertise to actually do it.

When Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols tried to blow up a milk jug with a small fertilizer bomb in October 1994, the experiment was a fiasco. "The blasting cap just sprayed the ammonium nitrate everywhere. It didn't work," said Michael Fortier, at McVeigh's trial.[27]

The Justice Deartment claims that McVeigh improved his technique over the next six months by studying the bomb manual Homemade C-4. But the book describes a laborious process of baking ammonium nitrate in small cans. It would take weeks to build a 4,800-pound truck bomb this way, and it would not solve the technical challenge of achieving simultaneous detonation.

Yet the prosecution insists that McVeigh and Nichols built the bomb in one day, on April 18, 1995, and then executed the flawless detonation of the biggest ANFO bomb in the history of U.S. terrorism.

Common sense would suggest that McVeigh had help from an expert, at the very least.

Now we learn that Dennis Mahon--an acknowledged associate of McVeigh [28]--was logged by the ATF as a man capable of detonating large ANFO truck bombs.

The FBI had been told that he had threatened to blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma.

But the FBI was too busy to talk to him.

Really.

There is another clue in that April 21 FBI memo. Every name of significance was misspelled. Special Agent James Blanchard managed to turn Elohim City into Elohm City. Dennis Mahon became Dennis Mehaun. Andreas Strassmeir became Andreas Strasmeyer. Pastor Robert Millar became Bob Lamar.

But wait--the FBI would never mislead us--the FBI that denied the existence of organized crime in America until the 1957 Appalachin conference?

[x]

No wonder this place seems full of more fruit cakes than five years ago.

Depends on how you define "fruit cakes." There was actually far more discussion of OKC, Vince Foster and Waco theories then. There was far more to discuss when Clinton was President, and it seemed like there was a wider variety of people and opinions here. Now there's just less discussion of everything.

It's not that there are more cranks or eccentrics now. There are fewer. It's just that the traffic and the crowds are elewhere now, and what's left, whether eccentrics or conformists is less worthwhile.

[spycatcher]

In case you missed it, the question asking if you also support Arafat in the face of documents showing him as a terrorist was an analogy to other blind Arab apologists who go to any length to shift their illogical defense when facts are uncovered. Your demand for the original source documents instead of admitting to the facts made me laugh and think of Arafat's buddies who of course cry "forgery" (just like you would) when shown the incriminating documents.

And If the FBI finally releases the surveillance videos of McVeigh that witnesses say would show him with swarthy Mr John Doe #2 you would claim that the other man was digitally added to the video so we could attack Iraq. It's never ending with people like you.

And yeah, you could have done something right a long time ago by simply discussing and trying to refute facts and not attacking the author and messenger. Since you didn't do that, you raised suspicion as to your own curious motives and the tables were turned back on you.

It's very strange that someone would be so upset that Iraq, Iran or Al Qaeda activity in spring 1995 is now, after 9-11 hurt us, being examined *and new clues found* while the FBI was repeatedly seen over the years to be asleep at the wheel (and is still half asleep). You seem to have a stake in protecting the Islamist terrorists and keeping the focus on old news.

[sam_paine]

will someone tell me why McVeigh would allow himself to be executed without mentioning (in his defense) the participation of Iraquis

Well, it seems clear that he was involved in the bombing either way. He knew he was guilty and nailed. He was also fairly intelligent, deranged, but intelligent.

So if he's getting the chair either way, would he will himself to take the chair as the sole "mastermind" of a "patriotic" revolt against the feds....or should he admit that he was a traitorous simpleton puppet of a foreign gubbmint and merely lit the fuse?

[spycatcher]

And don't forget how the Waco investigators blew the lid off Clinton-Reno lies, and many of the less wild "theories" became the mainstream view of the facts once the Waco documentary came out. Most Americans are now more outraged at the governments behavior than they are the Branch Dividians.

And when the same guy who's book reopened the Martha Moxley murder case finishes his book on Vince Foster's strange death, Mark Fuhrman probably will have done the same. Opinion polls show 65-70% of Americans do not believe Foster comitted suicide. Interestingly, the photo of Foster's neck was just ordered to be kept from the public last month while others were released.

As far as OKC, there are many in the current Defense Dept no longer neutered by Clinton that know more inside information than is public. For instance the current Dept Sec of Defense discussing the Iraqi phone contacts McVeigh had in his pocket. The FBI may be sitting on the case but the DoD doesn't take international terrorism so lightly and is now reviewing the links to OKC.

But of course a few disruptive dorks say all these professional people looking into the real facts must be tin-foil kooks. Unlike a true skeptic, they can't function in the world of facts and reasoning and have to attack people who do.

[Bandolier]

bump for later.

[norton]

Yes,
What you said!

[glorygirl]

"but I think this is a case of the lesser of the two evils."

Wonder if the 9/11 families would agree with you?

We don't know all the facts, but it's hard for me to believe that people who call themselves Americans would advocate cover-ups, and worry about internal political implications, when American lives --and the American way of life--could be at stake.

GWB has this hanging over his head. And I hope and pray he does the right thing.

[Dave S]

It's never ending with people like you.

As it is with gullible fools like you that will accept third or fourth hand information of what so and so said or did, or has a document. Its pathetic. Kind of like Michael Rivero.

You seem to have a stake in protecting the Islamist terrorists and keeping the focus on old news.

No stake at all. I would just as soon see Iraq flattened, the Mullahs in Tehran wiped out, and Al Qaeda drawn and quartered and then buried among Pork grinds. My deal is I have a real problem with nutzo "True Believers" that will believe anything any one tells them but will then demand proof from those that think they are full of shit.

For example I could make up as factual a case for the fact that the transister and most of the technology of the past fourty years is the result of back engineering of Alien technology and I would be just as factual as your professors thought piece. Get some indictments and I might buy into it.

[spetznaz]

First of all thanks for a very well written and comprehensive reply! You are the perfect paragon of a Freeper ...someone who can explain their point of view without automatically attacking with endless vitriol and stuff (you'd be surprised the number of Freepers who cannot stand someone with a different opinion).

With that said i have to say that although i am still not a subscriber to the Iraqi theory there are things in your answer that have made me start to seriously question the whole matter. Things that the Clinton and GW administrations did that just do not make sense!

I still feel that it would be unheard of for an American president to undertake such an overt act of treason .....and if that is what happened that is treason of the highest order, even greater than 'losing' nuclear warhead miniaturization tech to China. However still it bothers me to think such a thing is possible ....however just because my mind is trying to discredit this in the most visceral manner possible does not mean it is not possible. After all there are a number of things that do not make any logical sense whatsoever. I wish they are just coincidential, but there is always the chance they are not!

Thus i am willing to concede that there might be much much more to this story than meets the eye. Although let me just say that if it ever comes to light that it was a White House cover-up then the fall out will make WaterGate seem like a walk in the park! Heads will roll like crazy!

[supercat]

Mr. Partin knows a little something about things that go "boom". I'll take his expertise into consideration. I wouldn't ask anyone else to though, they can draw their own conclusions.

Gen. Partin's strongest point in that article seems to be that objects which are equidistant from the blast site should have equal levels of damage. For a building of non-uniform construction, that notion is nonsense.

The entire weight of even-numbered posts A4-A8 was borne via transfer beam to odd-numbered posts A3-A9. This created a structure in which the failure of even a single post would severely compromise the strength of the remainder, if not collapse them outright. That the entire area supported by the transfer beam collapsed should hardly be considered surprising.

Imagine, for example, that rather than using a truck bomb McVeigh had only used a cutter charge to take out column A3 at ground level. What would have happened?

Although it might have been theoretically possible for the transfer beam to support column A3, it would have been cantilevered by twice the normal span distance. Stresses on the beam would thus be over ten times the normal loads. Clearly, then, the transfer beam would have failed somewhere between A3 and A5. Most likely it would fail near A5, since that would be the part under greatest stress, and because even if it failed between A3 and A4, letting A3 drop free, the cantilevered stress from A4 alone would probably be enough to break it.

The failure of the transfer beam near A5 would only be the beginning, though. The weight of A6 on the transfer beam will try to "tilt" the end at A5 toward it. Normally, this tendency would be counteracted by the weight of A4 (doubling the strength of the A5-A6 segment of the beam). Since A4 has dropped free, however, there is now nothing to counteract this moment force. Worse, as the beam sags it will apply considerable lateral force on column A5. While lateral forces from the beam would normally be borne by columns A1, A2, A3, those columns are no longer connected. Consequently, column A5 will experience lateral forces far beyond design parameters and column A5 may likely topple.

If it does, this sets the stage for a progressive collapse as column A5's failure will collapse A6-A7, then A7's failure will collapse A8. A9 will not be collapsed, because column A10 is supported from the ground rather than by transfer beam.

As to whether an undamaged A5 pillar would have collapsed if there were a clean cutter charge on A3 I can't be certain; likewise for A7 collapsing from A5's failure. Those columns would certainly experience loads far beyond those for which they were designed, but if otherwise undamaged it's possible they might remain standing. On the other hand, post A5 was almost as close to the bomb as A3, and A7 was still close enough that it would likely have received significant damage. Indeed, A7 is almost as close to the bomb as the nearest undamaged pillar, B4, whose lateral loads would have been much better balanced.

If Partin's credentials are as people say, I don't know why he would ignore something as major as the building's alcove which totally change the structural nature of damage and collapse. The only thing I can figure is that perhaps he was in a hurry and did not use full care in his analysis.

[spycatcher]

Thanks for being intellectually honest. There is a definite middle ground here, but no one could find any with Dave S. unfortunately. I'm more than willing to engage in a good debate, but it's impossible when people smear the messenger and compare a firsthand report of documents to forth hand reports of reverse engineered alien space technology as he just did.

He obviously may have larger problems that I'm not aware of, so maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on the guy. Hopefully someone close to him will enlighten him. But since he's a Freeper I'm assuming he's not mentally challenged and it's just an attitude problem or hidden motive as a disruptor who wants to shut down a discussion. Or it may just be he's the product of our modern school systems where truth is relative and can just be loudly denied to make it go away.

Skeptics of alternative theories are needeed to keep things in check, as are skeptics of the government's word. And those who are intellectually honest should also be the first to rise up and be skeptics of any people who are knee-jerk shouters of "conspiracy kook" in a crowded thread. Especially when the discussion regards a topic currently being debated in the halls of Congress and the Pentagon, and reported by the AP and others. If it's good enough for our government to debate, it should be good enough to be intelligently discussed on Free Republic. It's not the people with alternative ideas that turn people off to FR, it's the self-appointed kook police wearing their own tin-foil hats to fend off any new facts and reason.

[COB1]

"but it's hard for me to believe that people who call themselves Americans would advocate cover-ups,"

Sorry I've been so long in replying.

I hope you're not questioning my allegiance to this country because I choose not to accept rumors and suspicions in the place of cold hard facts.
I served my time, and I would do so again gladly.

What you and so many people are advocating is that WE as a nation become mired in an investigation of the wrong doing of the previous president.
It's easy to say that no one should be above the law, and that premise is absolutely correct.
The problem lies in the implementation of that axiom.
I have read this whole thread, and if the evidence is being covered by the FBI, the CIA, the Saudis, the Mafia, the Secret Service and anyone else who had access to that informantion, then how is it ever going to come to light?
We could play ring-around-the-rosie with this for the rest of George W.'s term in office, and he would be defeated in the next election.
Guess what we have then?
Another Bill Clinton!

You damn right it's about politics!
It's always about politics!
Let's keep our eye on the ball and get our Conservative politicians elected.
Bill Clinton and the First Witch can rot in hell!

[rwfromkansas]

bump to read later myself