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Explorer From China Who 'Beat Columbus To America'
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 3-4-2002 | Elizabeth Grice

Posted on 03/04/2002 3:24:49 PM PST by blam

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To: twigs
"! The only question I've had is that when Columbus' men arrived here, European diseases quickly decimated the local population. While I firmly believe that earlier explorers got here as well, I've wondered why disease was not a larger problem. Or was it?

I'm a strong believer in early and continuous (interrupted) contact between the 'new' and 'old' worlds (tens of thousands of years). This question has baffled me for a long time. Now, recently I've read an article that pushes the date of the arrival of TB in the Americas back by 1,000 years.

61 posted on 03/05/2002 5:35:31 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Thanks. I'd like to know as much about early diseases as I can learn. What was that which was found in the early Egyptian mummies that was only grown in the Americas? Was it nicotine? (A senior moment here). Have you read any Barry Fell? The primary problem I see with him is that not many other researchers have his background and cannot confirm or deny his theories based on his knowledge. Interesting reading, though. I tend to agree with you about continuous contact with the Americas.
62 posted on 03/05/2002 5:51:06 AM PST by twigs
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To: twigs
What was that which was found in the early Egyptian mummies that was only grown in the Americas? Was it nicotine?

Maybe. But cocaine residue has definitely been found in the stomachs of Egyptian mummies. Cocoa being strictly a product of the Americas.

63 posted on 03/05/2002 6:02:14 AM PST by Darth Sidious
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To: twigs
The Curse Of The Cocaine Mummies
64 posted on 03/05/2002 6:08:49 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
I do wish they would not describe things in that manner, for example, my garden is planted in 1.2 billion year old dirt. (See what I mean) Now, I really do have some 7,000 year old wood.

Yes, but what they meant was they know from the strata of the layers of soil and clay that that level of clay was deposited 125 million years ago. 100 feet is a long way down. There was an electronic resistor-like part discovered in rock several years ago plus other artifacts found deep in the earth. And there is biblical support for an event that wiped out everything millions of years ago, much more devastating than Noah's flood.

These links test the limits of one's open-mindedness as to the history of intelligent existence on the earth. :^)

65 posted on 03/05/2002 6:30:11 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: blam
Of course, they are called Native Americans.
66 posted on 03/05/2002 6:39:29 AM PST by BJungNan
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To: blam
I always just stayed at the Bocadito, the little half-Maya guy that runs it was a real favorite of mine, but I cannot recall his name to save me. He had started out as a waiter over at the Villas Arqs...before opening his own place, I think I was one of the first to stay over there. Dirty enough to be fun.

Haven't been there now since 1993.

67 posted on 03/05/2002 7:25:59 AM PST by crystalk
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To: blam
The Spanish also had no immunity to AMERICAN diseases, and it was they who were few and half starved and seasick, and had had to land with no ports.

The reason the Amerindian population was so weak immunologically, was its extreme inbredness. Over 90% of all American Indians, from Alaska to Tierra Del Fuego, are descended from just four women.

While the separatists are technically wrong, and boats were landing here or there all the time, most of those people just starved, perished, were murdered where they landed.

The boaters had major cultural and religious effect, but were few and male and could not much impact the genetic picture, nor could their small craft be packed with enough artifacts to convince all of today's skeptics.

Yet genetically it is the diffusionists who are wrong, and the whole aboriginal population of both continents and the Caribbean too, is still basically descended from a single boatload of Asians, apparently with just four breeding females, that landed in SOUTH America in a time of high antiquity indeed, some 35 to 39.5 thousand years ago.

It may well have floated with the clockwise current around the Pacific rim from the Sakhalin/Korea area all the way to Chile before finally coming ashore. See Monte Verde, Popiapo, etc.

68 posted on 03/05/2002 7:35:50 AM PST by crystalk
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To: leadhead
If you mean on his FAMOUS voyage, Columbus certainly did not stop in Ireland, but went by way of the Canaries.
69 posted on 03/05/2002 7:37:00 AM PST by crystalk
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To: crystalk
"Haven't been there now since 1993."

Geez...You're making me think now. It must have been 1989-90 since I was there. I do remember that the room at Club Med was $6.00 a night. LOL, I stayed there for two days even though I already had accomodations in Kozumel.

70 posted on 03/05/2002 7:40:55 AM PST by blam
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To: blam;#3fan
When bumping this stuff, please keep me on your lists.

Thanks, from a fellow Ancient American subscriber.

71 posted on 03/05/2002 7:41:22 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: gnarledmaw
Will do. :^)
72 posted on 03/05/2002 7:51:35 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: crystalk
"The reason the Amerindian population was so weak immunologically, was its extreme inbredness. Over 90% of all American Indians, from Alaska to Tierra Del Fuego, are descended from just four women."

How do you explain Luzia? (post #58)

73 posted on 03/05/2002 7:54:05 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
She was found in South America, and lived over 20M years after that continent was first settled by that infamous boatload from Asia. Yet, to say it had orginated on the Asian side as it did (Sakhalin/Hokkaido/Korea area) does not say just what ethnicity in today's terms it represented, for it left nearly 40,000 years ago.

This was before (IMO) we had the Mongoloid race developed fully as it is today, and in any event those On The Boat would have looked more Caucasian to us, than Mongolian, and that is true of Lucia. I don't think science has a good answer, so I will just say that whoever might have been alive in that area of Asia at that time, that is who went to Chile. Some 39000 years ago.

Notice how both with her, and with Kennewick Man, the skull restorers both in features and in coloration, did their best to make what is really a fairly typical Caucasoid skull...seem to be dark skinned or possibly (Amerind looking in Kennewick) and (African looking in Luzia) to suit the present racial politics in the USA and Brazil respectively.

Kennewick Man, who lived some 9000 yrs ago, is so Europoid or Caucasian, that if he had been found in England like Cheddar Man, of the same vintage, the two could easily have been related.

A year or so ago I wrote on a thread that I think Kennewick Man might have been an explorer, an early Viking or Lewis-&-Clark type. European man has always been curious, and tends to like to see what was out there. Could easily have just been an old Norseman or Englishman.

74 posted on 03/05/2002 8:06:39 AM PST by crystalk
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To: Darth Sidious; blam
Cocaine residue has definitely been found in the stomachs of Egyptian mummies.

Yes, that's it. Thanks you. That fact reveals to me that folks have been traversing the ocean for a long, long time!

75 posted on 03/05/2002 8:39:53 AM PST by twigs
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To: crystalk
Zheng "sailed west" and was in India and E. Africa." Absolutely - very well documented. Had the Emperor not dismantled the fleet, the Chinese might have found their way around Africa and "discovered" Europe.

I doubt Zheng made it to America, however. The voyages into the Indian Ocean are well documented, but there is nothing about sailing east across the Pacific. The maps are easily explained because the Chinese were well informed about the outlines of Asia and knew the geographical relationship between Asia and Europe across the Silk Road.

What Columbus did not know was how far Europe was from Asia going west from Europe. Had Zheng cirumnavigated the globe, the Chinese would have known that.

76 posted on 03/05/2002 8:59:18 AM PST by colorado tanker
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To: Verginius Rufus
Why would they come to Indiana?

Well, the falls on the Ohio at Louisville might well encourage early explorers to travel up the Wabash and take the first large tributary to the East to see if they could find a portage. That would be the East Fork of the White River. This takes you to the Muscatatuck. It is in this basin that these peculiar brown birch trees grow.

If you keep on going East you have a short land portage to the another Ohio tributary.

However, none of these rivers are particularly deep. You would kind of dead end on this trip about Seymour, Indiana.

There you will find a major council circle of ancient vintage. The town itself is built on mounds without any buried remains or artifacts. This has frequently led folks to believe these are natural mounds. On the other hand, they are resident on about 10 square miles of perfectly flat land in the midst of a naturally rolling terrain.

The mounds are regularly spaced and shaped. You can make out the remains of ceremonial courtyards. The layout in both size and shape is very similar to Tiotihuacan.

77 posted on 03/05/2002 9:18:30 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: twigs; blam
There is a lot of evidence that Columbus was far from the first who got here.

1. John Day's letter

'It is considered certain that the cape of the said land was found and discovered in the past by the men from Bristol who found Brasil, as your Lordship well knows. It was called the Island of Brasil and it is assumed and believed to be the mainland that the men from Bristol found.' (From the letter written by the English spy John Day between mid-December 1497 and mid-March 1498 to "The most magnificent and most worthy lord, the Lord Grand Admiral" in Spain (likely Christopher Columbus). The letter was discovered in the Spanish archives in 1955 by the American researcher Dr. Louis Andre Vigneras. This English translation published in Canadian Historical Review, volume XXXVIII (1957), pages 219-228).

2. Sir Francis Bacon:

'..it is likely that the discovery first began where the lands did nearest meet. And there had been before that time a discovery of some lands, which they took to be islands, and were indeed the continent of America, towards the north-west. And it may be, that some relation of this nature coming afterwards to the knowledge of Columbus, and by him suppressed (desirous rather to make his enterprise the child of his science and fortune than the follower of a former discovery), did give him better assurance that all was not sea from the west of Europe and Africke.'

(Fragment from Sir Francis Bacon's Historie of the Reigne of King Henry the Seventh [written in 1621, published in 1638]).

78 posted on 03/05/2002 9:36:32 AM PST by Oxylus
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To: Oxylus
Thank you for your post! Please feel free to follow with more such tidbits if you have them! I'm fascinated to learn of the hidden nuggets that reside in foreign archives--Spanish and Vatican among them.
79 posted on 03/05/2002 9:55:37 AM PST by twigs
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To: crystalk
"Yet, to say it had orginated on the Asian side as it did (Sakhalin/Hokkaido/Korea area) does not say just what ethnicity in today's terms it represented, for it left nearly 40,000 years ago."

Those would be the Jomon/Ainu, European origins via Siberia.

"This was before (IMO) we had the Mongoloid race developed fully as it is today, and in any event those On The Boat would have looked more Caucasian to us, than Mongolian, and that is true of Lucia."

I agree with you on the appearance of those on 'the boat' except for Luzia. The North Chinese had not had their population explosion yet. (They would become The American Indians about 6,000 year ago). The American Indians displaced the Joman/Ainu (Kennewick Man) in North America."

"A year or so ago I wrote on a thread that I think Kennewick Man might have been an explorer, an early Viking or Lewis-&-Clark type."

There are a number of Kennewick Man's relatives out there (Skeletons), he's just the most famous.

I think Luzia (and her group) came across the Atlantic.

80 posted on 03/05/2002 12:35:05 PM PST by blam
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