Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
As to the Jews, who were first called by Christ and his apostles, and who were the first that trusted or hoped in Christ for salvation, before there was any considerable number of converts among the Gentiles, he declares, that these Jewish believers, whereof himself was one, had in and through Christ, obtained a right to be God's portion and a peculiar people: but together with their being God's portion, they should have a right to an inheritance. In whom we have obtained an inheritance; namely, an inheritance in the heavenly Canaan, the inheritance of the saints in light; and to this inheritance, says he, you have been appointed, God having fore-or-dained that this inheritance should be the portion of all believers, and the consequent of faith in Christ, by virtue of which we become the sons of God, and all this to the praise of his own glory; that is, to the intent that his glorious attributes of wisdom, goodness, and mercy, might be acknowledged and highly praised.
That to be called to faith, and brought to believe in Christ, before others, is a favour and special prerogative which some persons have above others. We who first believed in Christ. It is an high honour above all others, to be in Christ before others, Who were in Christ before me (see Ro 16:1)
That as all believers are God's portion, and the lot of his inheritance, so they do obtain from him right and title to a lot and share in an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in the heavens for them: We have obtained an inheritance.
Furthermore, Jesus Christ the Mediator, is that person in, by, and through whom, believers are instituted to this inheritance: In whom, Christ hath purchased this inheritance for them; he hath promised it to them; he has already taken, and still keeps possession of it for them; and he will put them into the full and final possession of it at the great day.
That the great end and design of God, in all the distinguishing favours and benefits which by Jesus Christ we obtain from him, is this,That we should be to the praise of his glory.
I love how Calvinists attempt to frame the debate. That is not the question and you know it. The question is what does God want! Adam was spiritually dead and hid from God and God looked for him.
Again, the real issue is your one, all encompassing, eternal decree that God has, through His directive will decided who will be saved and who will not.
The issue of Total Depravity is a mute point since God can save anyone, so the question is why doesn't He save everyone who is 'totally depraved' What makes the elect special? So we are back to the 'Secret Councils' and that is the ultimate foundation of your philosophical system (CoL.2:8)
This statement leaves total inability out of the picture, except that for you, WANT, and free will, have a special meaning. In your lexicon, depraved WANTS imprison free will so that it isn't free, it can only choose evil. That brings total inability into the picture for you.
From the article of Predestination Thread III (and the first two threads as well):
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation... -- Westminter Confession of FaithWithout your special definitions the statement describes the current state of hardened sinners who fight against God and break His commandments. It does not say whether they might in the future move in a positive direction, as indeed they can, for they have God-given free will, properly defined. The road back will be long and hard, since they have so many evil deeds to repent of, but they can seek for God's help in so doing.IN HIS NATURAL STATE, MAN POSSESSES FREE WILL, BUT IT AVAILS HIM NOTHING -- Since man was corrupted by the Fall, he sins voluntarily. There is no external force or Coercion: he is motivated by his own passions. But such is the depravity of his nature, he can only move in the direction of evil. -- The blessed Saint Augustine.
Total Depravity is false. TULIP is false. Calvinist predestination is false. Calvinist predestination and TULIP are, in my opinion, the most thorough denial of free will, properly defined, that is possible in a Biblical context.
The truth is: God has given man free will (properly understood).
(I am sure any Arminian would be happy to offer that truth as the "objection" to Total Depravity.)
God has created man in His image with the free will to choose obedience to His Gospel or to reject it, free will that avails him something even in his fallen state.
Any discussion of Calvinism eventually comes down to the nature of God (God is Love, God is merciful, God is just), and the nature of man (man has God-given free will to choose between good and evil). Calvinist predestination and TULIP are contrary to the love, mercy, and justice of God and these doctrines deny that He has given man free will, properly defined. This is one of the main points ftD is making in his well-written #289 and #371.
Amen and Amen!
You must be using the wrong Bible, the verse reads
We love him because he first loved us(That omission is from the corrupt Westcott/Hort/Nestle/Aland text)
Moreover, God showed His love for us by dying for us that is the love that is being spoken of here (Jn.3:16,Rom.5:8) and that we are responding to.
You say you won't go on until I address where I stand on your "T" definition. Therefore, let it be clear. I disagree with your definition. (This really should be no surprise to you; that's the point of these discussions for the past month.) What we're trying to do is help the ARMINIANS "know" your definitions so that we have a common language. (We keep being accused of misrepresenting your points.) Let me say again. I disagree with "T".
Can we now move on?
I've already posted the "U".
Here is the "L".
T - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.
U - Unconditional Election means that before creation God has elected for his own reasons some for believing unto glory and some for damnation.
L - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.
Why did you post your deficient view of "U" here when I had already shared with you some of its defects in my earlier (302?) post?
Oh, I do. Why can't you believe the context in which John 3:16 is placed?
Which verse? It would be helpful if you referenced the post in question, since much water has passed under the bridge since I last addressed you (if your comments are addressing a post I made to you, and to to another.)
However, you have told us that you disagree with our "T", so why go on? You would believe that our basis is incorrect, thus why any more effort?
I do note that you dismissed our "T" out of hand, but didn't bother to tell us why. That doesn't do anything in promoting understanding.
Here is where we stand: The Calvinist says that "Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ". The non-Calvinist says, "No he isn't!". The Calvinist then says, "Without understanding the true state of sinful man it is meaningless to discuss how that sinful man obtains salvation". Stalemate.
To what are you referring? (I have slept since then, and don't have a clue as to what your point is.)
Boy, I need that first cup of coffee. I thought 392 was addressed to me. Sorry.
In your present state, you are not qualified to discuss any issue of doctrine with us. You worship false gods. Until you repent of this, you will not be qualified to discuss doctrine with us.
TRANSLATION: We will not soil our hands by discussing the plan of salvation with the unsaved.
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