On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[Ward Smythe]

I have read that only the powerless raise their voice..

Shout for joy to the Lord , all the earth.
- Psalm 100:1

Maybe you need to read more.

[Ward Smythe]

If you break one commandment you break them all

Then, on a spiritual truth, you are in agreement with the Mormons.

[woollyone]

I understand that you're not God. My question is a serious one, and not meant to bait you into an agruement. I only ask because I value your opinon, as Christian. If a regenerate believer, during a very despondant period of their life, were to have taken their own life, do you think God forgives them? Just your opinion is all that I ask.

[CCWoody]

We disagree with it, but we know what it is.

No, you really don't. You don't know, for instance, how a Calvinist can say that God created Hitler and that Hitler could not do anything outside the will of God and yet God is not responsible for the evil that Hitler did. You really don't know it because you continue to misstate our beliefs in this.

And you yet don't know how a Calvinist can say that the Bible explains how simple an answer it is to explain how somebody believes in a saving way.

You really don't know much of anything about Calvinism.

[CCWoody]

I will grant you that I will not engage WhiteMountain in a debate of the faith for the very fact that I do not know the teachings of Mormonism well enough to refute them. Were we to debate, I am certain that he could talk circles around me. In that regard, I will admit to you here and now I am a complete failure.

Well, I'll tell you what. I'll be happy to show you some of the unique Mormon beliefs, if this is all that is keeping you from calling them to repent.

I engage him for 2 reasons: to expose their teaching and to call them to repent. I guess I should figure out now what WM and I should discuss this time around...

[RnMomof7]

I understand that you're not God. My question is a serious one, and not meant to bait you into an agruement. I only ask because I value your opinon, as Christian. If a regenerate believer, during a very despondant period of their life, were to have taken their own life, do you think God forgives them? Just your opinion is all that I ask.

I am not too strong a theologian :>)

This is my official position on this..if one is regenerate and saved, the Grace of God preserves him .Now how that plays out I do not know. It might be that he has time to repent before his death.But more likely I would say a born again believer will not take his own life , he will be protected by God's Grace.

I am flagging this to a Pastor for a better answer..but tomorrow is Sunday so you may not hear until tomorrow night or Monday :>)

[CCWoody]

If a regenerate believer, during a very despondant period of their life, were to have taken their own life, do you think God forgives them?

So, why should the sin of taking their own life hinder them any more or less than any other sin for which Christ has already made Atonement for?

[woollyone]

ty

[Ward Smythe]

You don't know, for instance, how a Calvinist can say that God created Hitler and that Hitler could not do anything outside the will of God and yet God is not responsible for the evil that Hitler did. You really don't know it because you continue to misstate our beliefs in this.

I am "QUOTING" your beliefs, or that of your compatriot in this:

In Post #213 I say to OrthodoxPresbyterian:
"So God is responsible for the evil of the Soviet Union?"

He responds:
"So, ultimately, yes -- God is responsible for everything."

It was not until Post #1094 that forthedeclaration, a Wesleyan, pointed out that Calvin might view this diffrently.

In this regard, it appears that the Calvinists are not on the same page of the hymnal.

If you guys disagree on what you believe, you can't fault me for being confused.

[RnMomof7]

So, ultimately, yes -- God is responsible for everything."

I believe he was referring to the fact that failure to act is predestination Ward..

[Consort]

This would be a good time to take out our hymn books and sing:

Amazing Grace

[Ward Smythe]

If a regenerate believer, during a very despondant period of their life, were to have taken their own life, do you think God forgives them?

You did not ask this question of me and let me state that this is only my opinion.

Several years ago, a former Pastor from my church who loved the Lord very much, suffered severely from depression. One morning his wife found him in the garage with the car running.

Our church agonized over the loss. But our senior pastors (one a Mennonite and one an Evangelical Presbyterian - we were a unique congregation) shared with us that it was their belief that he was so deep in his depression that he was beyond the point of making rational decisions.

Whether they were right, I don't know. But it was a comfort to us as a congregation. Sadly, those most victimized by suicide are those left behind.

[ShadowAce]

God's failure to act? Are you sure? How can you be sure that He didn't act positively to bring about the desired result?

(I'm acting as a devil's advocate here, but I would like to know your answer)

[RnMomof7]

God's failure to act? Are you sure? How can you be sure that He didn't act positively to bring about the desired result?
(I'm acting as a devil's advocate here, but I would like to know your answer)

We can not be sure how God chose to work..but we do know that God can and will withhold actions that could change the outcome,and by doing that predestinate an event.

[Ward Smythe]

I believe he was referring to the fact that failure to act is predestination Ward..

But he closed with:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. -- Isaiah 45:7

Which has been brought up several times and used to say that "God creates evil," not just that he allows it to happen.

Which, again is in disagreement with the Calvin commentary posted in 1094

[xzins]

Free Choice (Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism

FreeChoice Position.	Scripture	Implication	Calvinist Objection	Calvinist Implication
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.	John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: . Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.	People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice.	U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.	God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed.

[Ward Smythe]

I'll be happy to show you some of the unique Mormon beliefs...

Gee thanks, Woody. But I dunno.

After all if you can't tell me the "truth" and convince me to be a Calvinist,
aren't you a little afraid if you tell me the "truth" about Mormonism you'd turn me into one? ;-)

[Ward Smythe]

Good work. Shouldn't you be in bed or getting ready for Sunday morning?

But it's nice to have some "friendly" company for a change. ;-)

[xzins]

Yes, I should be but this idea for a chart was burning inside me. I had to post the first two lines. Hopefully, you'll see line two before the hour is out.

[ShadowAce]

Formatting looks good on my Opera browser. I'm going to bed, so I'll check out line two tomorrow.