On Free Grace

Your #771 to xzins: Nope. Jesus did not say that little children were not sinners. He said that these children (the specific ones on whom He placed His hands) were able to come unto Him.

If you will look up the passage, you will see that it does not support your argument. He says "little children" not "these specific little children":

Matthew 19:13-15
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

and also:

Matthew 18:1-4
1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Part of the greatness of Christ's teachings is that they have general application and are not narrow-minded (or Clintonesque). (Notice also how He used a child as an object lesson to great effect.) Meekness and humility is for everyone, and if we are to be Christ-like, we must learn how to be meek and humble by following His example. This is something that debate-minded aggressive Calvinists, in particular, need to work on.

There are, of course, character traits of children that we adults do not want to emulate. We call these "childish" as opposed to the "child-like" meekness and humility of which Jesus was speaking.

Your #1059: That 'Old' 1611 will give you the answer everytime!

What a blessing that King James Version is! The Lord knew, of course, what translations would be coming off the presses from those who try to explain away the miracles and wondrous works of God, and made sure we had a translation from those who knew the Hebrew and Greek well!

There seems to be an elegance to the language, too. Maybe it is because it is not our everyday modern English, or maybe there is something else to it.

"I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth ... yet in my flesh shall I see God."

"For unto us a Child is born ... and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."

"And Mary brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn."

(I did these from memory, they may not be exact.)

Your #777: If Infants have not Sinned, they would not be born mortal. If the were not sinners, they could not die in infancy.

This is an interesting bit of speculation. If not born mortal, what would have happened, and when, before they were born, did they sin?

I suppose you are reasoning from "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), and forgetting about "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). The Fall brought death into the world. Though sinless Himself, our Savior inherited the capacity to die from Mary, His mother. Our Savior's atonement made little children whole from the foundation of the world, and they only become sinners when they become accountable before God for their actions. That is why they should not be baptized as infants.

Take note also of the next verse after the one you quoted:

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

and consider also the passage at the end of Romans 6, how Paul talks about choosing good and choosing evil, and the consequences of each:

Romans 6:16,23
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your #1051: Because if my beliefs are true, then the Bible itself has promised me that it shall never fail to supply me with answers:

There is no promise in the verses you quote, and it is not dependent upon your beliefs being true. Scripture is profitable for many purposes that we may become better Christians and eventually perfected.

Your false claim of a false superiority is pride, OPie. You should, in charity, extend to Ward every advantage you claim for yourself, that the Bible will always provide him with answers, that his beliefs are true, etc., before you accuse him of violating the principle of logical charity, or else you have not presented his views in the best possible light.

Best thing to do is to avoid these insulting attacks in nearly every post to a non-Calvinist. That would be an example worthy of emulation.

Your typical self-assuming Calvinist position: "I'm never going to run out of answers, Shadow... the Bible is on my side!!"

"Yes, with just a little clipping, twisting, jamming, shoe-horning and most of all, forgetting -- the Bible "is on our side." And you can do it all at home in just 15 minutes a week. And think of the fun you will have amazing your friends by quoting long-dead and forgotten "thinkers" nobody has ever heard of who twist even better than you do.

But most of all you too can enjoy the immense pride that comes from being perceived -- at least in your own mind -- as the One with all the answers. And people will think your god is the biggest, baddest dude in the whole world because he is absolutely mean to everyone. No longer will you have to be satisfied with the God of those namby-pamby Christians; you won't have to take a back seat in sheer brutality to the moslems. No, now you will have a brutal god too. Remember, you can't make a omlet with scrambling a few souls -- er, eggs.

Now don't be discouraged, there will be some who will try to put your favorite proof-texts back into context, but that takes so much time and effort that most of their listeners will give up trying to do that. So just turn to page 2 of our handy, in-depth 2 1/2 page guide to the Bible and keep SHOUTING your favorite little verse -- or better yet half a verse -- over and over. That will give a patina of authority to your construct and will readily mislead the uninitiated and the tender.

Remember, in a society with a 30-second attention span, the guy with half a verse WINS!

And just think of the pride you will have in adding those "followers" to your entourage. Wow, it's even better than buying a foreclosed house for nothing down. And the best part is that you can keep telling everyone -- ad nauseum -- that you have all the answers.

And don't worry that you will have to change your way of life. The beauty of this whole thing is you just keep talking about how mean your god is to your enemies and how you're a favorite of his and only your friends get to be be favorites with you. And the best part is, unlike that demanding God of the Bible, your god doesn't demand anything of you. More pride than the real thing and none of those pesky demands.

Unfortunately, due to the limited nature of this TV offer, we can offer no guarantees, but there is only a small shipping and handling charge."

[From the forthcoming infomercial which will appear between "How to Make a Gazillion Bucks from Nothing Down Real Estate" and "How to Lose 80 pounds of Ugly Fat by Attaching Battery-operated Buzzers to your Mid-section While Lounging on the Couch." We expect thousands to be added to the Construct Defenders Association as a result of our appeal.]

Well, Erasmus, the RCC scholar who assembled the Greek text for the KJV from the few manuscripts then available did the best he could. [By the way, unbeknownst to Erasmus, the popes had hidden away one of the very best codices (Codex Alexandrinus) in the vatican library for at least 200 years as of that time out of a misguided fear, trying to preserve their favorite RCC doctrines from the Scriptures. But Eramus, despite being a famous scholar of his day, didn't know it existed. A copy wouldn't be smuggled out of the library for another 250 years!] But, under tremendous time pressure to produce a text for the KJV translators to use, he encountered a problem.

The Greek manuscript he was using lacked the last leaf (containing the last six verses of Revelation). So, being an inventive guy, Erasmus had to back-translate from the RCC Latin version into Greek (he simply made up a phony last six verses), thereby creating seventeen textual variants in Rev 22:16-21 that have no Greek manuscript support! None. [While God undoubtedly knew that the thousands of earlier manuscripts would surface in the next 400 years; Eramus clearly did not.] That these variants were carried over in the KJV translation is problematic for KJV-only folks.

And then there is another problem. In particular, Rev 22:19 in the KJV reads: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” But instead of “the book of life”, every manuscript of the Greek text (including the one the vatican had hidden away at the time) says “the tree of life.” No Greek MSS have “book of life” -- not one -- in this verse. The corruption of ‘tree’ into ‘book’ had occurred earlier in the transmission of the Latin (RCC) text when a scribe accidentally miscopied the correct word "ligno" (‘tree’) as "libro" (‘book’).” Oops. Thus, a handwritten error that originated in Latin found its way into the first published Greek New Testament and consequently into the KJV.

This is one of many, many errors and problems with the KJV. (All of this apart from the fact that the manuscripts used for it are about 1,000 years later than we now have for the modern versions.) While its English language is pleasing to the ear, accuracy is not its forte.

Do you believe that Penitence is required for Salvation? I believe that John the Baptist was Saved from his mother's womb.
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
If Repentance is required for Salvation... and John the Baptist was Saved... then God must be able to create Penitence in even an unborn child.
Oh, you say to me, Infants cannot manifest their God-created Penitence? Well, I will freely grant that, to our darkly-seeing mortal eyes, regenerate infants cannot demonstrably manifest Penitence. I mean, sure, maybe if you brought the Unborn Messiah into the very presence of a Penitent Unborn, they might dance about the womb for joy (Luke 1:44), or something like that. But otherwise your Mortal Eyes would have no idea that God had created Penitence in such a little one!!
But who cares what your Mortal Eyes can see?
OK--you've explained doctrine--you've even claimed that the bible is on your side--but you neglected to show even one verse that supports your position, though you have done an awful lot of speculating.

Sorry--I'm on the Bible's side here. Infants do not sin, thus those who die in infancy go to heaven.

2 Peter 3:9 is Peter's epistle to those who have been granted faith (2 Peter 1:1), not "Peter's epistle to everyone and their dog".
God is not willing that Any to whom Peter is writing should Perish. Which proves the Calvinist Fifth Point, the Preservation of the Elect.
OK--imagine I am writing a letter to you and all the Calvinists on this thread. Imagine, also, that I consider myself a teacher. Now, I say "God wants everyone to be saved." No clarification. No expounding on that sentence--just a simple "God wants everyone to be saved." Do you honestly take to mean that I am only talking about you?

You claim that the bible says what it means and means what it says--yet you take a simple statement and twist it around and add words so that it will fall in line with your preconceived notions of what it should say. I believe the Pharisees did that as well.

I am able to assume the Arminian position in the strongest possible light, for I have been an Arminian.

Ah, but what you don't know about me is that, while I have, all my life, been an Arminian, I spent three and a half years in a Reformed church (granted, some have asserted it to be a "bad" Reformed church) where my family and I agonized over the very doctrines you so proudly hold.

I have considered the other side OP. I have read your views. I have gone to the scriptures. And I have followed all of the arguments on these threads.

I have TRIED to grasp the Calvinist doctrine, but the truth is,

IT HORRIFIES ME!

It speaks of a god who created Hitler,
It speaks of a god who created Stalin,
It speaks of a god who creates millions of innocent babies, just to kill them so they can be with him
It speaks of a god who, just for kicks, creates millions of souls just for the purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

And what speaks most loudly of all is that:

IT DOESN'T BOTHER YOU GUYS,

In fact, you embrace it. You think it's "cool."

In Calvinist teaching, we are but pawns on the cosmic chessboard of a sadistic god.

WE assert that our position is Biblical Theology. And while I have clearly acknowledged that I am not the strongest debater in that regard, others here are. And so have there been thousands through the last 2,000 years who could match you scripture for scripture, intepretation for interpretation, and you know it, especially if you have been an Arminian.

But that's not the point. Scriptural knowledge does not equate with scriptural authority or accuracy.

Satan could best us all in a debate on the scriptures.

And you have the nerve to claim:

"I'm never going to run out of answers, Shadow... the Bible is on my side!!"

AND THEN, if that isn't enough you say that, you say that you don't have to grant Logical Charity to the Arminians because you already figured it out.

2,000 years of bitter church history and you nailed it.

You. You da man. You're the big cheese, the big enchilada.

You have it all right.

I think not.

You simply cannot see this because you are so blinded by the pride you vehemently deny.

The dog doesn't need to hunt. Take a little expedition. Examine your own heart. Not mine.

"It speaks of a god who created Hitler, It speaks of a god who created Stalin, (I won't dignify the rest by posting it again.)

OK, if God did not create Hitler, then who did?

If God did not create Stalin, then who did?

Of course God has created all men, He is the only Creator. Now, you can argue with this, but the fact is, God has created all of mankind, and He has so ordered the events of their lives so as to determine who they are and what they will accomplish. God could have just as easily chosen not to create Hitler or Stalin, or He could have chosen to crate them under different circumstances. You are not railing against "Calvinism here, you are railing against the Biblical message that God is the only Creator, and that He has created this universe by His good pleasure, and for His good pleasure.

Yes, OPie is correct, the Bible contains all the answers to life's questions. Thus, we can confidently state that we have access to all the answers. This is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of Biblical authority. The fact that you could be sooo wrong about the very nature of the Creative aspect of God's person shows that you haven't bothered to either read, or understand, the Biblical message.

(One word, it doesn't bother us one wit if you dance around saying "pride, Pride, PRIDE". We have heard far worse, and have come to expect it. We also know that those who matter will see right through your little charade, and the only ones who will be deceived by it, well, they would be deceived even if you don't post.)

Why is it that you would argue against God's sovereignty in the area of Creation? We think that Romans Chapter Nine gives us the answer, look it up.

(BTW, I am not "back", and probably won't be until Monday. I just came off duty, and it was a rough night dealing with a very sad suicide and the notifications of all the family. I will get some "sack time" and then devote the rest of the day to my wife.)

It speaks of a god who created Hitler, It speaks of a god who created Stalin, It speaks of a god who creates millions of innocent babies, just to kill them so they can be with him It speaks of a god who, just for kicks, creates millions of souls just for the purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

Ward God did create Hitler..and God did create Stalin..tell him if you have a problem with HIS plan do not complain to mere humans like yourself:>)

I have read an old Schofield bible predating WWII .In it Schofield had a note on the prophecy that Israel would one day again be a Nation.As I read that I was awed at the power of God and His faithfulness to His word. God knew about Hitler..Hitler's sin would cause God's plan to be fulfilled. Israel the Nation came from the horrors of Germany..God has promised that all things will work together for the good for those that are called acording to HIS purposes.

Is it of more comfort to you to believe that God closed His eyes and let the world spin out of control? Yes God knew Hitler before He was born , and God foresaw the acts of Hitler and used them to fulfill His promise.

As for god "killing" millions " of babies just so they can be with Him

Hey Ward heaven is our home.YOU view death as a punishment.. but does God? He sees it as a homecoming for those that are His!

No one will be in Hell that did not deserve it Ward..No one will be in Heaven that is not His..That is true if you are an Arminian or a Calvinist!

BTW Good Morning (afternoon:>)

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